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Question About Allah?
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bkanwar2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 97
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother Sidqi Salaam, from a linguistic point of view my question is very simple and basic. Please try to look at اللَّهِ and break it down into separate alphabet in the order you believe or understand they are written. Please leave all the concepts associated with it aside for now. As it is just a script, written on a piece of paper. Let us just treat it as is. Hope I am able to explain my query further. I can reassure you there are no personal hidden agendas or gains involved in this discussion. It is purely an academic exercise for enhancing knowledge and mutual learning.

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further to share,

ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #12 on: Today at 04:57:01 PM » Quote

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Peace Bkanwar,

You are right, "allah"/"al-ilah" is a universal common noun and not a culture-specific proper name. Please see additional evidence discussed on this thread:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16710.msg167380#msg167380

Peace,

Ayman

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bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #13 on: Today at 05:30:24 PM » Quote Modify

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Thank you. It can not be a proper noun as if it was, we will have to reinvent whole Arabic grammar. A proper noun can not begin with a definate article AL. Hence, first AL does not indicate what is commonly believed and agreed upon.

Badar

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Saleena



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sidqi, I think everyone here would agree with you in principle. Truth must remain simple, and this is where its power lies. The principle of acceptance of a Single Source of creation is certainly most important of all; no one can dispute that.

But with respect, I do not agree with your statement that folks are trying to 'prove no point or some personal satisfaction'. Where this thread is concerned you are looking at this from a broad philosophical perspective, whilst bkanwar2 is asking a specific linguistics question. The only reason this discussion is prolonged is that as a linguistics question it can become nitty-gritty.

bkanwar2, you are reminding me of an old online friend of mine who used to ask a question on her board, provide information from external sources, and then step back and let others argue over it. She always had her own view in her mind, but someone else would always have to ask her for it before she would openly state it. Smile You have said that your question is for the purpose of an academic excercise, but I cannot help wondering whether you actually have had a thought of your own to contribute and are waiting to see if someone else comes up with the same idea as yours. If this is the case please do share it here.
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #14 on: Today at 02:53:58 PM » Quote Modify

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So if it is not a proper name. What is it? Some seem to understand that it is a unique word in Qur'an to identify the supreme entity of the Universe. Let us examine this belief and claim from a linguistic point of view, as well if it is support by Qur'an. Here is how this word, if it is really a word, used in Qur'an. This really undermines this belief as well of this being a unique word as it keep changing it's linguistic shape more than once. This also points for it being not just a word but a composition of words, i.e., a sentence.

1 ءالله

5 ءاله

3 1 ابالله

4 1 الالهة

5 2154 الله

6 5 اللهم

7 73 اله

8 17 الهة

9 4 الهتكم

10 5 الهكم

11 139 بالله

12 8 تالله

13 6 فالله

14 1 فالهكم

15 6 فلله

16 116 لله

17 240 والله

18 2 واله

19 1 والهكم

20 1 والهنا

21 1 وتالله

22 27 ولله

TOT. 2814


Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #15 on: Today at 03:02:33 PM » Quote

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Peace Bkanwar,


Quote:
Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 05:30:24 PM
Thank you. It can not be a proper noun as if it was, we will have to reinvent whole Arabic grammar. A proper noun can not begin with a definate article AL. Hence, first AL does not indicate what is commonly believed and agreed upon.


Proper names can have AL (for example Alqahira/Cairo). They can be any gibbirish. So this is not the criteria. The criteria is whether the common noun fits in the context or not. In all the great reading the common noun al-ilah/allah fits in all the contexts. For example, "wa huwa allah fi al-samawat wa al-ard..." is reduced to nonsense if one takes "allah" as a proper name. It would be the same nonsense as saying "he is John of the house" to mean "he is the man of the house". Also, as you noted, the word takes different forms such as "allahm" (my god) which are not used with proper names ("my Allah" is absurd nonsense).

Peace,

Ayman

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afridi220
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #16 on: Today at 03:08:20 PM » Quote

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on Today at 02:53:58 PM
So if it is not a proper name. What is it? Some seem to understand that it is a unique word in Qur'an to identify the supreme entity of the Universe. Badar



In ayah 110 of Surah 17, Bani Israel [the Children of Israel], ALLAH makes it perfectly clear that HIS worshippers are permitted to call upon HIM by HIS attributes. "Say [unto the people]: Call upon ALLAH, or call upon Ar-Rahman: By whatever name [or attribute] you call upon HIM, [it is well]. HIS are the Most Beautiful names [or attributes]......." [17:110]


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Peace


People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered; forgive them anyway


bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #17 on: Today at 03:48:44 PM » Quote Modify

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Peace Ayman as well, you are talking about Modren Arabic Grammar most likely, as in what is called classic Arabic. A simple proper noun can not take a definate article see page 219 from EH PALMER's Arabic Grammar. Wright and Lane both concur. What is your source to support your claim, please share. Peace and love.

Badar

« Last Edit: Today at 04:21:41 PM by bkanwar2 » Report to moderator 205.167.2.27



bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #18 on: Today at 04:03:13 PM » Quote Modify

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Brother Afridi, peace and thanks for your contribution. Let us leave the concepts associated with this so to call word. Most of the translators translate with the concepts they have in mind. Let us talk very basic linguistics. Please just make an attempt to break it down into alphabets in the order you think they are arranged in this so to call word. Only this way, we may able to say that we understand, what it stands for? Peace and love.

Badar

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bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #19 on: Today at 04:21:06 PM » Quote Modify

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Brother Ayman for your convenience, here the link for relavant page form Palmer' book. Peace.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gdHjvHF-E2kC&pg=PA377&dq=arabic+grammar+by+Edward+H+palmer#PPA219,M1

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 05:16:54 PM » Quote

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Thanks brother Afridi for trying. This is what most people believe that it is Al Illah. But the problem is this does not explain the middle part of the contruct للَّهِ. Here there is a teshdeed. So please try to think and explain what it is for? Which alphabets are included here? Good try.

Badar

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Al Araf
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 05:42:04 PM » Quote

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salam bkanwar2. please understand that the quran is the spoken word of allah.

you rely on diacritical marks like "teshdeed" this reliance is a false reliance. diacritical marks like teshdeed are a later addition to the writing of quran, to assist in pronounciation. diacritical marks are not reliable. please rely on the arabic letters.

the noun allah, predates the quran, is found in the torah, genesis 24:7. הלא n.m. God. allah is also the aramaic word for god.

allah is the teacher.



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afridi220
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 05:45:31 PM » Quote

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 05:16:54 PM
Thanks brother Afridi for trying. This is what most people believe that it is Al Illah. But the problem is this does not explain the middle part of the contruct للَّهِ. Here there is a teshdeed. So please try to think and explain what it is for? Which alphabets are included here? Good try.

Badar


NOT so easy

http://www.answers.com/topic/arabic-alphabet-2

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Peace


People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered; forgive them anyway


ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 05:51:38 PM » Quote

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Peace Al Araf,


Quote from: Al Araf on Yesterday at 05:42:04 PM
you rely on diacritical marks like "teshdeed" this reliance is a false reliance. diacritical marks like teshdeed are a later addition to the writing of quran, to assist in pronounciation. diacritical marks are not reliable. please rely on the arabic letters.

The vocalization marks are irrelevant. There are in fact two Lam in the consonantal skeleton.

Peace,

Ayman

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bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 06:22:37 PM » Quote

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Brother, Al Araf, AlKitab says that the physical nature of the entity, behind this universe is beyound our comprehension. Hence, although the Laws and rules mentioned in Al Kitab are from him but the language used was the simple languge of the people of that time. Hence it is the words of this language not Rab's words. Furthermore, if we can comprehend what language he spoke, it defies the whole concept of him. It will also limit him to be only Arab or Arab's God, which rest of world actually think, He is.

Brother, Ayman diacritical points are neither irrelevant nor they are only for vocalisation. By not understanding these points or trivializing them, is one of the main causes of misunderstanding the AL KITAB.

Brother Afaridi do not be disheartened, we are getting there.

Badar


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bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 07:02:46 PM » Quote

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Brother Ayman I agree with you there are two Lams ل. With this how would you justify to be ال الة. A teshdeed represent joining of two same consonants. However, there is a ا between two words here.

Badar

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afridi220
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 07:19:54 PM » Quote

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 07:02:46 PM
Brother Ayman I agree with you there are two Lams ل. With this how would you justify to be ال الة. A teshdeed represent joining of two same consonants. However, there is a ا between two words here.

Badar


The name 'Allah' which encompasses the ninety-nine Names and Attributes consists of four letters, Alif, Lam, Lam and the same Hah (ALLAH). The people of Sufism say that the absolute unseen Essence of Allah Exalted and Almighty is expressed by the last letter vowelized by the Alif, "Ha." It represents the Absolutely Unseen "He-ness" of the Exalted God (Ghayb al-Huwiyya al-Mutlaqa lillah 'azza wa jall). The first Lam is for the sake of identification (tacrif) and the second Lam is for the sake of emphasis (mubalagha).

Safeguarding your breath from heedlessness will lead you to complete Presence, and complete Presence will lead you to complete Vision, and complete Vision will lead you to complete Manifestation of Allah's Ninety-Nine Names and Attributes. Allah leads you to the Manifestation of His Ninety-Nine Names and Attributes and all His other Attributes, because it is said, "Allah's Attributes are as numerous as the breaths of human beings."

It must be known by everyone that securing the breath from heedlessness is difficult for seekers. Therefore they must safeguard it by seeking forgiveness (istighfar) because seeking forgiveness will purify it and sanctify it and prepare the seeker for the Real Manifestation of Allah everywhere.


This is what the teaches about the essence of Alif Lam Lam Hah (Allah) .


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Peace


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bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 07:28:55 PM » Quote

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Brother Afridi, sufi concepts always make me smile. Only thing I will say please show me a word in Arabic lexicons that is constructed like this. Peace.

Badar

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 09:15:58 PM » Quote

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Peace Badar,


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 06:22:37 PM
Brother, Ayman diacritical points are neither irrelevant nor they are only for vocalisation. By not understanding these points or trivializing them, is one of the main causes of misunderstanding the AL KITAB.

Vocalization marks are manmade devices that were not part of the original text or the language of the great reading. They appeared in the late Abassid period. They are completely irrelevant and counterproductive. They assume that the reader is stupid and won't be able to figure out the correct vocalization and meaning from the context. The majority of vocalization marks are wrong in the great reading, specifically those having to do with the case endings. This is why they are routinely ignored by everyone, even the staunchest defenders of Classical Arabic. So, for example, everyone reads chapter 55 as "al-rahman 3alam al-quran" and no one reads it "al-rahmanu alam al-qurana". So it is clear that the great reading original language was a vernacular language devoid of memorized vocalization case endings that serve zero purpose.

Peace,

Ayman

bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 10:45:52 PM » Quote

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Peace, brother Ayman. We need to stop here before we proceed any further and discuss this concept. To me these are very important. So you consider that signs of Fetha, Kesra and Dumma are useless. Also Gezm, Sukun Teshdeed, Meda and Wasala is useless. They do not impart or change meaning of a word. One can figure out a word and hence meaning without them, correct. May I ask this, is your native language Arabic? Thanks

Badar

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #31 on: Today at 04:00:08 AM » Quote

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Peace Badar,


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 10:45:52 PM
Peace, brother Ayman. We need to stop here before we proceed any further and discuss this concept. To me these are very important. So you consider that signs of Fetha, Kesra and Dumma are useless. Also Gezm, Sukun Teshdeed, Meda and Wasala is useless. They do not impart or change meaning of a word. One can figure out a word and hence meaning without them, correct. May I ask this, is your native language Arabic? Thanks

Yes, the vocalization marks are useless and as one can see from the great reading most of them are false (specifically the vocalization marks for case endings). Everyone can routinely understand Arabic texts that are completely devoid of vocalization marks. This is why Modern Standard Arabic did away with them. If you read any Arabic newspaper, you will be able to understand it perfectly without vocalization marks. All the early manuscripts of the great reading are devoid of them. Yet we are also perfectly capable of understanding those manuscripts when we read them. Yes, I am a native Arabic speaker. However, this is not necessarily an advantage because native Arabs are taught in school many false things about the Arabic language, including the importance of vocalization marks.

Peace,

Ayman

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thegod
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #32 on: Today at 02:46:33 PM » Quote

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Quote
There is no God, (there is) only Allah.


Quote
There is no God, (there is) only Allah.

2:163 Wa-ilahukum ilahun wahidunla ilaha illa huwa alrrahmanualrraheemu

Your god is one god; there is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

43:84 Wahuwa allathee fee alssama-iilahun wafee al-ardi ilahun wahuwa alhakeemualAAaleemu

He is the One who is god in the heaven and god on earth. He is the Most Wise, the Omniscient

114:3 Ilahi alnnasi

god of the people

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bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #33 on: Today at 09:00:02 PM » Quote Modify

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Thanks Brother ayman for the detailed answer. Sorry just too busy today and catching up now. Please, tell me how did you come to conclusion that middle constructs has two Lams in الله.
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The continued discussion from free-minds forum.

Al Araf
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #34 on: Today at 02:33:44 AM » Quote

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salam bkanwar2. allah is mighty wise, posessor of all power.

allah had a choice, to have the quran recited, to have a written book delivered to muahmmad, to give him a computer memory chip, and many methods we know of, and many we are unaware of.

allah chose to have the quran recited to muhammad. there is great wisdom in understanding why allah chose to have it recited, and not written, pay attention here, learn of the wisdom of allah. it is the wish of allah to have it recited, and the focus should be on the recitation, as allah wished it should be.

allah is the best of those who teach.

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #35 on: Today at 03:03:11 AM » Quote

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Peace Badar,


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 09:00:02 PM
Thanks Brother ayman for the detailed answer. Sorry just too busy today and catching up now. Please, tell me how did you come to conclusion that middle constructs has two Lams in الله.

1. You can read two Lams. الله
2. The first Lam is part of the Arabic definite article "AL" while the second is part of the root, as was discussed on this thread:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16710.0

Peace,

Ayman

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #36 on: Today at 03:11:18 AM » Quote

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Peace Al Araf,


Quote from: Al Araf on Today at 02:33:44 AM
allah had a choice, to have the quran recited, to have a written book delivered to muahmmad, to give him a computer memory chip, and many methods we know of, and many we are unaware of.
allah chose to have the quran recited to muhammad. there is great wisdom in understanding why allah chose to have it recited, and not written, pay attention here, learn of the wisdom of allah. it is the wish of allah to have it recited, and the focus should be on the recitation, as allah wished it should be.

The word "quran" is not meaningless and it is not equivalent to "speaking". The god had a choice to describe it as "quran/reading". Any "reading" is reading out of a written book. This is why the god told us to "read" (96:1) and that he teaches with the pen (96:4). This is why the god also chose to describe it as "kitab/the book" from the very beginning (2:2).

Peace,

Ayman

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Al Araf
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #37 on: Today at 05:11:18 AM » Quote

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salam ayman. you have a strange way of reading.


Quote
The word "quran" is not meaningless and it is not equivalent to "speaking"
this is made up by you. you make up a false claim that someone has said the word quran is meaningless, then you argue with yourself. i noticed you did this before when you disputed the claim that the first use of allah is in the torah.

Quote
A proper noun can not begin with a definate article AL.
then you say the opposite
Quote
Proper names can have AL (for example Alqahira/Cairo)
then you say
Quote
The name Allah is never used in the Torah.
and you say
Quote
So what you are saying is a physical impossibility.
when i provide proof that the word allah is in the torah
Quote
הלא n.m. god. genesis 24:7.
you turn around and say
Quote
So do you at least acknowledge that ALH (without a definite article) is a common noun and not a proper name

what exactly is your malfunction?

allah is the truth.



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bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #38 on: Today at 07:04:45 PM » Quote Modify

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Brother ayman peace. Do you believe that Arabic as a language has any grammar that a native speaker follows: or this premise of having a grammar is also a bunch of non sense. Else you believe a native speaker is capable of inventing grammar at will and some how others are also capable of comprehending it as well. Thanks.

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since after a flury of posts, intrest seem to have died on this forum about the question. I will share this from free minds.

ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 10:22:45 PM » Quote

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Peace Al Araf,


Quote from: Al Araf on Yesterday at 05:11:18 AM
salam ayman. you have a strange way of reading.
this is made up by you. you make up a false claim that someone has said the word quran is meaningless, then you argue with yourself. i noticed you did this before when you disputed the claim that the first use of allah is in the torah. then you say the opposite then you say and you say when i provide proof that the word allah is in the torah you turn around and say
what exactly is your malfunction?

It is not my problem that you don't know that "reading" is reading from a book and is different than speaking and that you seem to have not read Chapter 96 or the many references to the great reading being a "book/kitab".

It is also not my problem that you ignore that a proper name with an AL is different to one without the AL. So a place called Qahira is different to a place called Alqahira. A proper name is just a label and the definite article has not function other than being part of the label. So add AL it becomes a different label than without AL. So if you take it as a proper name then Allah is certainly not in the Torah. Unlike the Semitic word LH/ALH, The AL definite article is an exclusive feature of Arabic so it is a physical impossibility for AL-LH to be present in the Torah long before Arabic was invented.

On the other hand, if you are talking about the common Semitic word LH/ALH being present in the Torah then this is a common noun and not a proper name. Thus, you contradicted yourself and translated it to "god". On the other hand, proper names are not translated. It is not my problem that you ignore those basic linguistic facts.

Peace,

Ayman

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 10:26:39 PM » Quote

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Peace Badar,


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 07:04:45 PM
Brother ayman peace. Do you believe that Arabic as a language has any grammar that a native speaker follows: or this premise of having a grammar is also a bunch of non sense. Else you believe a native speaker is capable of inventing grammar at will and some how others are also capable of comprehending it as well. Thanks.

All languages have grammar. Without grammar, then a language is incomprehensible. The vocalization case endings are NOT grammar since we can perfectly understand the great reading without them. They are memorized forms that serve no purpose other than making the speaker appear more learned. It is just an empty show off.

Peace,

Ayman

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Al Araf
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 10:54:25 PM » Quote

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salam ayman. your inability to read is interfering with your comprehension making your answers nonsensical. I said:


Quote
allah had a choice, to have the quran recited...
you then say

Quote
It is not my problem that you don't know that "reading" is reading from a book and is different than speaking...
pay attention to what i write, i wrote recite not read. an inability to read is a mark of ignorance.

then you say:

Quote
So a place called Qahira is different to a place called Alqahira.
this is a foolish claim. there is no name "lah" there is a proper name "allah"

the fact is you rejected, disputed, and denied, that the word allah exists in the torah. I presented you with proof that the word allah is in the torah. you then changed the subject. you then claimed it is not a proper noun, which is not the original discussion. you then argued the difference between qahira and alqahira, which is not the original discussion.

let me remind you of the topic of this thread

Quote
Is Qur'anic orthograpical structure اللَّهِ really indicative of a proper noun for God?
the answer to bkanwar2's question is: yes

allah is the best of those who teach.


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barmack
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #42 on: Today at 01:25:09 AM » Quote

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Peace,
what is the point on arguing if you should recite or read it?
We should read it. in a moderate voice. so it is out loud. so when we are READing it, we are also RECITING it.

recite

1. to repeat the words of, as from memory, esp. in a formal manner: to recite a lesson.
2. to repeat (a piece of poetry or prose) before an audience, as for entertainment.
3. to give an account of: to recite one's adventures.
4. to enumerate.
source http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/recite

Arnt you reciting anyways? it makes sense so your both right.
To me it fits but if it doesnt please state why.

6:151 Say: “Come let me recite for you what your Lord has forbidden for you: that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend.”

7:175 And recite to them the story of the person whom Our revelations were given to him, but he removed himself from them, and thus the devil followed him, and He became of those who went astray.

hmm actually after reading verses from Quran on Recite i am a little cofused.


Peace

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #43 on: Today at 02:34:08 AM » Quote

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Peace Al Araf,


Quote from: Al Araf on Yesterday at 10:54:25 PM
salam ayman. your inability to read is interfering with your comprehension making your answers nonsensical. I said:

You obviously don't know what you said. Thus, you only quote a small part of it and leave out the nonsense part. Here is what you said and I am underlining the nonsense part for you, so pay attention:


Quote from: Al Araf
allah had a choice, to have the quran recited, to have a written book delivered to muahmmad, to give him a computer memory chip, and many methods we know of, and many we are unaware of.
allah chose to have the quran recited to muhammad. there is great wisdom in understanding why allah chose to have it recited, and not written, pay attention here, learn of the wisdom of allah. it is the wish of allah to have it recited, and the focus should be on the recitation, as allah wished it should be.

You say that the god chose to have the reading "not written". This is an absurdity. Reading BY DEFINITION is reading out of a written document. In fact, the god told us to read what he taught us by the pen in Chapter 96. So, either you don't know the meaning of the word "quran"/reading (as I said) or you are simply blindly repeating the Sunni myth that the great reading was not written until after the prophet's death or BOTH.


Quote from: Al Araf on Yesterday at 10:54:25 PM
you then saypay attention to what i write, i wrote recite not read. an inability to read is a mark of ignorance.

You said "quran" (in bold above) and this is the same exact thing as saying "reading". This is basic stuff. Again, if you don't know that "quran" means "reading" and are therefore denying that you said anything having to do with reading then you are in no position to argue about anything.


Quote from: Al Araf on Yesterday at 10:54:25 PM
then you say:this is a foolish claim. there is no name "lah" there is a proper name "allah"

It is again not my problem that you are not aware of the many North Arabian inscriptions that use both "lh" and "alh" interchangeably to mean "god".


Quote from: Al Araf on Yesterday at 10:54:25 PM
the fact is you rejected, disputed, and denied, that the word allah exists in the torah. I presented you with proof that the word allah is in the torah.

What you presented was the word "alh" not "allh". The difference is that the first is the common Semitic word for "god" and the second is its contracted form "lh" with the Arabic definite article and it means "the god". Thus, it is found in Safaitic with the h- definite article as both "halh" and its contracted form "hlh" and in Thamudic with hn- definite article as both "hnalh" and the contracted form "hnlh". Similarly, the Arabic word "allh" is also found occasionally in its non-contracted form "alalh" (for example, Zebed inscription).


Quote from: Al Araf on Yesterday at 10:54:25 PM
you then changed the subject. you then claimed it is not a proper noun, which is not the original discussion. you then argued the difference between qahira and alqahira, which is not the original discussion.

The topic is very much about the fact that the word "allh" is a universal common noun and not a meaningless proper name as you propose.

Peace,

Ayman

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #44 on: Today at 02:44:25 AM » Quote

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Peace Barmack,


Quote from: barmack on Today at 01:25:09 AM
what is the point on arguing if you should recite or read it?
We should read it. in a moderate voice. so it is out loud. so when we are READing it, we are also RECITING it.
recite
1. to repeat the words of, as from memory, esp. in a formal manner: to recite a lesson.
2. to repeat (a piece of poetry or prose) before an audience, as for entertainment.
3. to give an account of: to recite one's adventures.
4. to enumerate.
source http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/recite
Arnt you reciting anyways? it makes sense so your both right.
To me it fits but if it doesnt please state why.
6:151 Say: “Come let me recite for you what your Lord has forbidden for you: that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend.”
7:175 And recite to them the story of the person whom Our revelations were given to him, but he removed himself from them, and thus the devil followed him, and He became of those who went astray.
hmm actually after reading verses from Quran on Recite i am a little cofused.

Recite can be from memory or by reading aloud a written document. On the other hand, reading by definition is from a written document. Reciting is actually the final step. First, you have inspiration, then recording in a written document (by the pen), reading and then finally recitation. There is not a single passage in the great reading that says that the god "recited" anything to the prophet. So to say that the god "chose to have the quran recited to the prophet" is baseless conjecture. This is what I object to. But Al Araf can easily prove me wrong (which is perfectly OK with me and I am willing to change my mind) if he shows me such passage which says that the god recited anything to the prophet.

Peace,

Ayman


thegod
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #45 on: Today at 05:36:29 AM » Quote

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@ayman: Recite can be from memory or by reading aloud a written document. On the other hand, reading by definition is from a written document. Reciting is actually the final step. First, you have inspiration, then recording in a written document (by the pen), reading and then finally recitation. There is not a single passage in the great reading that says that the god "recited" anything to the prophet. So to say that the god "chose to have the quran recited to the prophet" is baseless conjecture. This is what I object to. But Al Araf can easily prove me wrong (which is perfectly OK with me and I am willing to change my mind) if he shows me such passage which says that the god recited anything to the prophet.

recite can also be repeating what somebody is saying

also, recitation can immediately follow inspiration; putting down the inspiration in written form is not a pre-condition to recitation

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Nun de plume
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #46 on: Today at 06:39:46 AM » Quote

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Quote from: thegod on Today at 05:36:29 AM
@ayman: Recite can be from memory or by reading aloud a written document. On the other hand, reading by definition is from a written document. Reciting is actually the final step. First, you have inspiration, then recording in a written document (by the pen), reading and then finally recitation. There is not a single passage in the great reading that says that the god "recited" anything to the prophet. So to say that the god "chose to have the quran recited to the prophet" is baseless conjecture. This is what I object to. But Al Araf can easily prove me wrong (which is perfectly OK with me and I am willing to change my mind) if he shows me such passage which says that the god recited anything to the prophet.

recite can also be repeating what somebody is saying

also, recitation can immediately follow inspiration; putting down the inspiration in written form is not a pre-condition to recitation


Right -- qul "say" appears over 900 times in Quran

There are many types of pens and media/books on which to write including peoples memory...

54:32 And We have eased/made the Quran flexible to the remembrance/reminder, so is there from a rememberer?

Peace



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Al Araf
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #47 on: Today at 06:42:14 AM » Quote

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salam the god. may allah protect me from the shaitan.

ayman concludes, baal is allah, jupiter is allah, zeus is allah, horus is allah, what absolute utter nonsense. there are not many allahs as ayman proposes. ayman has twisted the name of allah, and diminshed it by calling it a common noun. taubah astaghfirullah.

ayman does not know the difference between recite and read. the word iqra does not mean read. i can read the quran, and not say a word from my mouth, reading does not include speaking. i cannot recite the quran without speaking, recitation involves speaking.

when i say allah hu akbar, there is only one allah. gibreel said to muhammad. iqra bi ismi rabbika aladee khalq. the word iqra means recite. muhammad was told to recite the quran, he had to speak the words of the quran from his mouth so that others could hear the quran. muhammad was not told, read; if he read and did not recite, nobody would have heard the quran.

allah is the best of those who judge.

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thegod
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #48 on: Today at 07:28:03 AM » Quote

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@nun de plume: Right -- qul "say" appears over 900 times in Quran

There are many types of pens and media/books on which to write including peoples memory...

54:32 And We have eased/made the Quran flexible to the remembrance/reminder, so is there from a rememberer?

nice one!!...i guess the human brain is one of the most fantabulous storage mediums ever known

________

@al araf: ayman concludes, baal is allah, jupiter is allah, zeus is allah, horus is allah, what absolute utter nonsense. there are not many allahs as ayman proposes. ayman has twisted the name of allah, and diminshed it by calling it a common noun. taubah astaghfirullah.

@ayman: The topic is very much about the fact that the word "allh" is a universal common noun and not a meaningless proper name as you propose.

-> My name is Ismaail. It means God heard, or something like that, and it is a proper noun.

It is not meaningless.

Allaah, Al Rahmaan are all (proper) names of Allaah.

17:110 Quli odAAoo Allaha awi odAAoo alrrahmana ayyan ma tadAAoo falahu al-asmao alhusna wala tajhar bisalatika wala tukhafit biha waibtaghi bayna thalika sabeelan

Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these.

________

@al araf: ayman does not know the difference between recite and read. the word iqra does not mean read. i can read the quran, and not say a word from my mouth, reading does not include speaking. i cannot recite the quran without speaking, recitation involves speaking.

when i say allah hu akbar, there is only one allah. gibreel said to muhammad. iqra bi ismi rabbika aladee khalq. the word iqra means recite. muhammad was told to recite the quran, he had to speak the words of the quran from his mouth so that others could hear the quran. muhammad was not told, read; if he read and did not recite, nobody would have heard the quran.

-> yeah...great observation!

7:204 Wa-itha quri-a alqur-anu faistamiAAoolahu waansitoo laAAallakum turhamoona

When the Qur'an is recited, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy.

salam

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bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #49 on: Today at 08:41:31 PM » Quote Modify

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Guys peace. We are digressing from the subject and point I want to understand and discuss. It is purely linguistic. The simple language of the people of the time of exalted prophet.

Brother ayman, you agree that Arabic has a grammar, which is standard. You also claim that you understand the Al Kitab very well and your native language is Arabic, same language used in Al Kitab. Hence, it would be correct understanding that you know the grammar of Al Kitab very well. Based on your knowledge of this grammar and being a native speaker you conclude that اللَّهِ although not a proper name but it is a combination of الة and ال and it is grammatically absolutely correct. Do I understand you correctly.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just continuing to share with borthers and sisters on this forum.

ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #58 on: Today at 03:52:40 PM » Quote

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Peace Badar,


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Today at 03:14:17 PM
Thanks brother ayman. Now if I accept your understanding of the first word being a definite article ال, than arabic grammar needs to be rewritten by you or somebody. As it is said that this definite article is indeclinable. Meaning no further alphabets could ever be added to it to change its meaning. However, this word اللَّهِ is declined in Al Kitab several different ways (بالله, تالله, فالله, . ابالله and ولله).Hence, suggesting this ال actually does not stand for the definate article you and others believe. Please see referance below from EH Palmer. Lane, Wright and every other book agrees with this. Who shall I believe? Do you have referances contradicting these?
http://books.google.com/books?id=gdHjvHF-E2kC&pg=PA377&dq=arabic+grammar+by+Edward+H+palmer#PPA157,M1

I don't see the issue. You mentioned "al-kitab", which has the definite article. When you add a proposition "li" to "al-kitab", it becomes "lilkitab" and the Alif is assimilated. On the other hand if you add the proposition "bi", the Alif is not assimilated "bi-al-kitab" (see for example 3:7Cool. This is exactly the same rule as with the word "al-lah" where it is also "lilah" and "bi-allah".

Peace,

Ayman

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Prissy
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #59 on: Today at 05:05:50 PM » Quote

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Quote from: ayman on Today at 02:08:06 PM
I agree "al-ilah/allah" shouldn't be capitalized because it is a common noun.

I thought that you agreed that "al-ilah/allah" shouldn't be capitalized because it is a common noun. This would contradict your earlier assertion.
No it wouldn't because even though al ilah is common noun denoting "the god", it MUST carry a NAME by distinction, in exactly the same manner as you quoted Allat, Aluzza and Manat which are NAMES of "the gods". So once again, what was/is the name of "Allah" that became contricted from al-ilah to signify its higher or chiefly status. That's why I stated in my previous post that every god has a name.


Quote
So Allat, Al3uzaa, and Manat in Chapter 53 are all proper names of false gods that don't really reflect the truth about those idols.
They were considered daughters of Allah and each of these gods have a NAME.


Quote
Dalmation and German Shepard are meaningless labels.
Even if they are meaningless labels, they are given the names to distinguish and identify various species of dogs.

Nun de plume
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #60 on: Today at 05:25:08 PM » Quote

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Peace,


Quote from: Prissy on Today at 05:05:50 PM
They were considered daughters of Allah and each of these gods have a NAME.

Considered daughters by whom – Arab pagans and Christian missionaries?

Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc. are all Semitic Languages part of the same family tree...



Proto-Semitic Language and Culture
http://www.bartleby.com/61/10.html

Semitic language root word for God is "Eloh" Allah, Alah, Elah, Eloh, Ilah, Eel, Elâ

Allah is used by Arab Christians see Bible page one...

http://scripturetext.com/genesis/1-1.htm

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Hebrew transliteration of Genesis 1:1
B'reshit bara ELOHIM et ha-shama'im, V'et ha-arets.

The Prophets in Old Testament called God Elah


« Last Edit: Today at 05:28:40 PM by Nun de plume » Report to moderator Logged



bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #61 on: Today at 07:37:53 PM » Quote Modify

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Thanks brother Ayman. You have given only one example from Al Kitab. This is "
Quote:
On the other hand if you add the proposition "bi", the Alif is not assimilated "bi-al-kitab" (see for example 3:7Cool"
. as well 3:119, 7:170 & 40:70. However, for your statement
Quote:
"When you add a proposition "li" to "al-kitab", it becomes "lilkitab"
and the Alif is assimilated", there is no support from Al Kitab. Furthermore, you did not cite any Arabic grammar referance to support you claim that the definate article ال, could be declined. Hence, at these two place, in the Al Kitab this ال, is not used as a definate article. Instead it is used as contraction of الذى for a relative sentence. Please see referance E H Palmer, as well Wright is same.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gdHjvHF-E2kC&pg=PA377&dq=arabic+grammar+by+Edward+H+palmer#PPA256,M1
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thegod
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #62 on: Yesterday at 09:03:34 PM » Quote

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@ayman: It is also a universal common noun and not a meaningless label (a proper name that can be given to anything) as clear from the archeological evidence and from the great reading itself. Thus, it must be translated, unlike Ismail, Ibrahim and other names that are not translated and their translation leads to nonsense in the context.

-> that's an incorrect understanding of proper and common nouns, and u might find a dictionary helpful to understand the same

regardless, by saying that "allaah" is a common noun u are subjecting it to class and limiting modifiers, which is nonsense...to say the least

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #63 on: Yesterday at 10:08:55 PM » Quote

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Peace Badar,


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 07:37:53 PM
Thanks brother Ayman. You have only given one example from Al Kitab. This is "On the other hand if you add the proposition "bi", the Alif is not assimilated "bi-al-kitab" (see for example 3:7Cool". as well 3:119, 7:170 & 40:70. However, for your statement "When you add a proposition "li" to "al-kitab", it becomes "lilkitab" and the Alif is assimilated", there is no support from Al Kitab.

There are plenty of examples in the great reading of assimilation of the Alif when the proposition "Li" is added to the definite article. You can hardly go a few pages without seeing one. For example, see 2:30 "lilmalaika" where the Alif of the definite article in "almalaika" is assimilated excatly like the one in "allah" is assimilated in "lilah".


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 07:37:53 PM
Furthermore, you did not cite any Arabic grammar referance to support you claim that the definate article ال, could be declined in any circumstances. Hence, at these two place, in the Al Kitab this ال, is not used as a definate article. Instead it is used as contraction of الذى for a relative sentence. Please see referance E H Palmer, as well Wright is same.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gdHjvHF-E2kC&pg=PA377&dq=arabic+grammar+by+Edward+H+palmer#PPA256,M1

You are making things too complicated unnecessarily. No "al" is not used as a contraction for "alathi" no more than "the" in the English sentence "the beautiful of face" is used as a contraction for "one who is" in the English sentence "One who is beautiful of face". As in all languages, it is simply different ways of saying the same thing. Thus, trying to use "bi-alathi kitab" in 3:78 is ungrammatical.

On the other hand, the Arabian definite in Arabic as well as in other Arabian dialects has a mild demonstrative implication. For example, "al-ywm" is used to mean "this day/today".

Peace,

Ayman

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bkanwar2
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #64 on: Yesterday at 10:47:19 PM » Quote

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You say "alathi"="one who is" . I abolutely agree with you. In the middle of construct اللَّهِ, there is tesdeed, with two اا. One above and one below. This suggest four consonants in contruct. Two Alifs and two lams. Paying attention to vocalization sound order, in this contstuct it becomes. AL=alathi=ONE WHO IS, LA=NOT and finally ILLAH= THE GOD YOU BELIEVE IN. In Arabic = اللَّهِ,=الذى لا الة . ONE WHO IS NOT ILLAH (GOD YOU BELIEVE IN).

Please reflect with open mind and think. Peace and love.

Badar

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #65 on: Today at 12:20:55 AM » Quote

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Peace Prissy,


Quote from: Prissy on Yesterday at 05:05:50 PM
No it wouldn't because even though al ilah is common noun denoting "the god", it MUST carry a NAME by distinction, in exactly the same manner as you quoted Allat, Aluzza and Manat which are NAMES of "the gods".

But Allat, Aluzza and Manat are meaningless proper names that don’t reflect the truth about the entities being named so The Goddess is not really “the goddess”, The Power doesn’t really have any “power”, and Destiny/Manat doesn’t really determine your “destiny”. They are all just some stone idols with proper names. On the other hand, “the god” is really “the god”, the universal common concept and not the proper name that doesn’t reflect truth.


Quote from: Prissy on Yesterday at 05:05:50 PM
So once again, what was/is the name of "Allah" that became contricted from al-ilah to signify its higher or chiefly status. That's why I stated in my previous post that every god has a name.

The word “al-lah” is the same exactly as “al-ilah”. A contracted form is not a “proper name”. It is equally found in both the contracted and non-contracted form in other Arabian dialects and it is not a proper name. Of course, one can falsely make it into a proper name as Sectarians have done. This is why they don’t translate their invented proper name Allah. Proper named are not translated because they are just meaningless labels that don’t reflect the true universal (i.e., common) concept.


Quote from: Prissy on Yesterday at 05:05:50 PM
They were considered daughters of Allah and each of these gods have a NAME.

I have not seen any evidence that they were considered “daughters” of a deity named Allah. There was in fact no specific deity named Allah. It has always been a common noun just like “al-ilah” and was used in the same common way. Allat was considered a mother goddess. She was the mother of the Nabataean idol Dushara. The three idols were sometimes used interchangeably and were perhaps considered different manifestations of a single mother goddess. These false gods have proper names because they are false.

On the other hand, “the one true god” is just that and doesn’t need a proper name.


Quote from: Prissy on Yesterday at 05:05:50 PM
Even if they are meaningless labels, they are given the names to distinguish and identify various species of dogs.

But the god/allah/al-ilah is not a meaningless label. It conveys universal (common) truth, in other words, by definition, it is a common noun.

Peace,

Ayman

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ayman
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #66 on: Today at 12:54:03 AM » Quote

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Peace Badar,


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 10:47:19 PM
You say "alathi"="one who is" . I abolutely agree with you.

So you absolutely agree with me that "al" is not used as a contraction for "alathi" because this is what I said.


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 10:47:19 PM
In the middle of construct اللَّهِ, there is tesdeed, with two اا. One above and one below.

I have always said that the vocalization marks are irrelevant and mostly false. Especially, in this case, they are clearly false because the root “alh” doesn’t have any doubling. Also, read carefully, the Shadda is only over the second Lam and there is no medial Alif to be doubled in the first place.


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 10:47:19 PM
This suggest four consonants in contruct. Two Alifs and two lams.

Even assuming that the Shadda is remotely correct, what you are saying is completely false. You really ought to read other words with the same exact Shadda before making such baseless claims. It doesn’t take a lot of effort. Just look at the first verse of the great reading. You will see the same exact Shadda over the two Raa of “alrahman” and “alrahim”. Does this mean that now we have four consonants two Alifs and two Raa? So it is really “alrarahman” and alrarahim”! Of course this is nonsense.


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 10:47:19 PM
Paying attention to vocalization sound order, in this contstuct it becomes. AL=alathi=ONE WHO IS, LA=NOT and finally ILLAH= THE GOD YOU BELIEVE IN. In Arabic = اللَّهِ,=الذى لا الة . ONE WHO IS NOT ILLAH (GOD YOU BELIEVE IN).

What you are saying is absurd nonsense built upon more absurd nonsense. You don’t seem to even know how to properly read Arabic let alone make any constructions.

Peace,

Ayman

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Prissy
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Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #67 on: Today at 06:00:08 PM » Quote

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Quote from: ayman on Today at 12:20:55 AM
But Allat, Aluzza and Manat are meaningless proper names that don’t reflect the truth about the entities being named so The Goddess is not really “the goddess”, The Power doesn’t really have any “power”, and Destiny/Manat doesn’t really determine your “destiny”. They are all just some stone idols with proper names.
Proper names may be meaningless labels, they are nevertheless proper names given to distinguish and identify.


Quote
On the other hand, “the god” is really “the god”, the universal common concept and not the proper name that doesn’t reflect truth.
Again, the word "god" is a common noun but in order to distinguish and identify the god, it must have a name. For example, the word "president" is also a universal common noun but then there are gazillion presidents and each have their own proper identification. There's no way out of this. If I were to request information of one of the presidents of USA, one would obviously ask as to "which one (by proper name)" is the information requested. This is exactly the same for gods.


Quote
There was in fact no specific deity named Allah. It has always been a common noun just like “al-ilah” and was used in the same common way.
I didn't say that Allah is a proper name but agreed with you that it is a common noun constricted from al-ilah. As a matter of fact, this constricted form was the chief god of all other gods for that tribe.


Quote
Allat was considered a mother goddess. She was the mother of the Nabataean idol Dushara. The three idols were sometimes used interchangeably and were perhaps considered different manifestations of a single mother goddess. These false gods have proper names because they are false.
Just like the mother goddess has an idendity by the name Allat to distinguish from others, so does this "Allah" regardless of them being stone idols. The three gods named Allat, Aluzza and Manat were considered the daughters of a chief male stone deity which was also addressed as allah. There were hundreds of other gods as well, each having their specific identities by name, but they were all destroyed and only the chief god (allah) was venerated and worshipped and this chief god certainly had an identifying name distinguishing from other chief gods of various tribes. So once again, what was the proper name given to this god (Allah or allah)?

Also, ayman, what is the meaning or definition of "god"?

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Re: Question About Allah?
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Peace brother ayman. The universal truth is that the language of Al Kitab is a dead language as a spoken language. Even the native proclaimed speakers can not understand the message with out translations. The translation in the form of written or based on mental concepts developed of later interperatations. Your example of "You will see the same exact Shadda over the two Raa of “alrahman” and “alrahim” is not correct. There is no Alif above Shadda in these words, there is only Fetha. Nor these words imply names for the entity that is behind this Universe. See below proper linguistic translation of the verse cited by you.


بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
A foundation (a heart, Arabs used to believe as first part that comes into existence in womb) for mankind from one who is not illah. The ample and easy state of life that mankind can not conceive by themselves, from your sustainer and maintainer. The greatest mercy: from him.


Please look out of the box. Please bring some grammatical referances like I have to make this discussion interactive and useful for mutual learning. Thanks and love.

(I only agreed with meaning of alathi as "one who is", the same meaning is conveyed when it is written like in short hand as "AL" in examples cited by EH Palmer. I would request you to prove these referance wrong by citing referances and not just shoutting aloud).

Badar
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Saleena



Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bkanwar2, thanks for sharing those posts from Free Minds. It's a shame the folks on that forum seem to get so personal with one another. It puts outside readers off.

Anyway, what you said much earlier about the word not necessarily being unique as it changes shape depending on the sentence, and that the word may just be part of a whole range of sentences to describe the Creator, is a very interesting way of looking at it. It certainly is something to think about. Thanks for offering a fresh perspective.
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear daughter Saleena,

Your open, receptive, analytical, creative and inquisitive mind is much ahead of your age, Ma-Sha-Allah.

My best regards to your honorable father and family.
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Wassalam,
SA
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Saleena



Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Uncle, you are so sweet! My father and family send their Salaam and best wishes too. Smile
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