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Question About Allah?
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bkanwar2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 97
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Question About Allah? Reply with quote

Is Qur'anic orthograpical structure اللَّهِ really indicative of a proper noun for God?

Badar
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bkanwar2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me thank you very much to be the first one to answer my question. Though from a philosphical point of view, I may agree and disagree with you. But my question pertains completely from a lingustic point of view. Most contend that the above orthographical structure in Quran indicate a proper name for the equivalent of God's concept. However, from analysing it, linguistically it does not appear to be true.

Badar
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Sidqi



Joined: 24 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Continuing from AbdNur Lines.
Who is ALLAH ?, No one can answer this, since human intellect is limited by program and he can not fully understand what is not MATTER. Human mind can think of unthinkable but the content of thought may not be intelligible. An Aphasic may talk, but the content of speech is nothing but "word”. Keeping in view the limitation of human intellect i would say we should not be disappointed for not being able to answer because there are lot of things humans can not do.

Except: every human being is born with an instinctive awareness about ALLAH..( 7:172)
Sidqi. Ca
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bkanwar2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very intresting brother Sidqi. Let me make another attempt on expaining this. The Quranic script in question is invariably considered to represent the proper name of this entity. This is universal across all sects of Muslims. Therefore, by default among all non believers as well. Furthermore, this form the base of lot of daily conversations/rituals of Muslims like,Subhan-Allah" (Holiness be to God), "Alhamdo-Lillah" (Praise be to God), "La-il-la-ha-il-Allah" (There is no deity but God) and "Allah-o-Akbar" (God is great) as a devotional exercise of remembering God (zikr). In a Sufi practice known as zikr Allah (lit. remembrance of God), the Sufi repeats and contemplates on the name Allah or other divine names while controlling his or her breath.

However, question is, this word (if it is really a word) according to Arabic grammar really implies meaning to identify the entity you and brother Abdun Nur are referring to?

Badar
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Sidqi



Joined: 24 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you believe in the divine book " Quran", then thats the word, ALLAH used for himself.

But i fail to u/stand, why script is so important or its just that you want to play some theme. Any theme.
our mental order is very important.

Sidqi. Ca
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Safdar



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam.

There is no god but He, the Living, the Originator of life, the SelfSubsisting Sustainer of all creation. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtakes Him. All that exists in the Highs and the Lows, in the heavens and the earth, belongs to Him alone. Who can intercede in His Court except by His Leave, and then, only in accordance with His Laws? He knows which lies open before humans and what is hidden from them. His knowledge transcends time and space. No one can encompass a trace of His knowledge but through His Laws. The Throne of His Supreme Control extends over the Highs and the Lows. No fatigue touches Him as He benevolently guards His Dominion and creation. He is the Glorious, the Supreme.

الله
ال =The
+
له =Father

له ما في السماوات وما في الارض
Regards.
Safdar
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bkanwar2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks brother Safdar. This what I am trying to say please break it down into Alphabets. It is the written script that only we have. Language as a spoken one is almost dead, my brothers and sisters. Need to start from the basics. Any one else willing to give it a shot to break down as to what it incorporates from Alphabatic point of view. Thanks again.

Badar
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Saleena



Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Father? Reply with quote

I have a question for Safdar - Salaam sir,

Where did you get 'Father' from? I have never come across this before. I always understood that the etymological meaning of 'lah' is 'god' (as a contraction of 'illah'), not 'father'. To me, the 'father' implies gender, and we know that this does not apply to Allah as described in the Quran. If I'm wrong, then please enlighten us. Please let me know the source(s) of where you derived 'Father' from.
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Safdar



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 10
Location: HONG KONG

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wassalam.

source.QXP online
please point any word with the mouse the dictionary appears kindly point lahu and check.
regards.
safdar
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bkanwar2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize you wish to examine words but I feel without reason, words are just words, so I would just say:

(Brother Noor, words are basis of every reason. Without words no reason. Without words no humans. The main characteristic that distinguishes, us humans from other creations, is this ability to acquire words/language. The words in Quran are supposedly words of this entity, but language used was simple language of the people of the time. Hence, they must have been familiar with concept/reason/words that one can associate with written script of اللَّهِ. However, the study of language makes it abundantly clear that this became not the case just few hundred years after the exalted prophet. This was at the time when language preservation was being done. There appears to be not an agreement in earlier linguistics as to what really was the alphabetic break down of this orthographical structure in Quran. Whether is one word or a combination of words? However, later thought process has accepted it as just a proper name. Hence, my query is valid from a linguistic point of view).
This single point is why Islam has been so easily lost to the world, God (yes, God is not Allah, nor it appears to be the entity given the proper name of Allah after exhaltd prophet’s time. I mean the entity you are trying to allude to) is not Allah, until you can distinguish between the concept of God, being an outside force, perceived as the controller of the universe, which is a limited and constrained concept, almost the direct opposite of Allah, you can not grasp why Islam is not a Religion but a Deen.

To argue about God is pointless, to understand Allah is vital, Allah emanates all realities from the inside out, this is why Allah is closer than your jugular vein. (The physical existence of the entity that is basis of existence of this Universe will remain difficult and illusive for us to understand. Is it external or internal hard to say? Quran again alludes to both. Question is with current state of our knowledge, can we understand it as some form of ultimate energy, may be. However, understanding the nature of this entity will not solve the issues that we have to deal with as a creation to continue to evolve. Hence, his nature is not the subject of Quran. Quran the bound book of laws for us, from him, as mercy: is to help us achieve our purpose of creation and not to understand his nature and existence. The laws to fulfill the purpose of our creation, that is to say continue to evolve positively. His existence can be inferred by using our reason and logic and paying attention to our surroundings and he really does not need words to prove it nor does he want to prove it to us). Allah is the opposite of God, a God requires outward worship, outward prayer, outward ritual. In contrast Allah requires your service to your fellow human beings, and so you serve his creation, as he emanates it instant by instant, to say a statement like, 'There is No Deity, but God', is truly blind to the concept of Allah.

Allah requires you to transform yourself from the inside out, it would be an impossible task to transform yourself from the outside in, as the religious attempt. (yes, he wants us to transform from within but the knowledge you need for this is not ingrained in the creation but provided from him from outside as wahi via messengers.).

Allah requires you to live as a Muslim, not perform blind and pointless rituals, to comprehend the concepts expressed within the Qur'an, not attempt to exist as men did fourteen centuries ago in a desert (completely agree hence no real rituals in Quran).

A concept is open to the evolution of any age of man, this is why the Qur’an expresses concepts as opposed to dogma, as the religious will happily manufacture and enforce.

But I am not heard, it seems strange to me, God, an insane construct created to subjugate men through religion, is valued and obsessed over by almost all, when the concept of Allah is self evident, provable through empirical experimentation. Prove God, prove an outside force and I will be silenced, there is more evidence for a tea pot, never made, just existent, orbiting the sun independent of humanity (God, name irrelavant, is neither only outside nor only inside it is everywhere, but his internal presence doesn’t interferes with our ability to exercise free will).

This is the thinking of men who limit Allah to a physical universe, when the physical is akin to holographic reality.
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With regards
Badar
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bkanwar2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother Safdar and Saleena, my lack of response to your break down should not be considered as my agreement. I just want people to understand the nature of query. This linguistic analysis by brother Safadar, helps as an example only. I want others to try.

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your reply, we seem to be in agreement on many things, and on minor issues hold conflict, I only stated, you only wished to examine words, because you said, ’my question pertains completely from a linguistic point of view’.

You say it cannot be proved, whether Allah emanates realities, or resides within the physical universe, looking over his creation, as a God, separate for it.

It has been proved through empirical experimentation, all physical reality is manifest instant to instant, each atom of reality is independently created from one instant to the next, without the single consciousness manifesting it, it would cease to exist. This is made evident through the understanding of time, as each atom is independent within time, it can be nothing else.

As for Allah been everything, of course, as Allah emanates all realities from the inside out, only Allah exists, both inward, and as his outward expression.

The purpose of the Shaharda, ’There is No God. (There is) Only Allah (It do think from conceptual point of view we have more to agree. You may have reached this conclusion with your independent experimentation, as from linguistic point of it is not as clear. Hence, so many rituals and dogmas in this proper name. However, linguistic query/experimentation of Quran for me does lead to same conclusion as well. There is “no Illah except for one who is not Illah”).’ is self evident through my perspective, yet through the perspective of the religious, hold little meaning, or value. This vital aspect of Islam is its true foundation, Allah pleads with you to see, God is the road to the mental slavery of religion.

God requires worship, Allah requires your service to your fellow man, God requires ritual and blind faith, Allah requires reason and belief, God requires prayer, Allah requires action.

In my view the Qur’an is a book of concepts, the stories within it need not be factual at all, simply parable, designed to make the concepts clear within the mind of the reader. I view the Qur’an in isolation, if it is a complete guide you need no other book, it must be taken at its word.

But as you state, the word must be correctly translated or it is open to abuse, although Allah has wisely written it to express the simple concepts from many perspectives and examples, to clarify his view, although it has been lost to the majority of Christianised Muslims.

The two main concepts Allah expresses to manifest freedom of the individual, and so society at large, without which free will is restricted, are the refusal of two things, Usury,(the premeditated theft of the fruits of somebody else’s labour), and the refusal of all sovereignty,( a person or establishment you confer your decision making ability to, and further are subject to their decisions), it matters not what else you believe, if these two concepts are understand and accepted every single human being on earth would be free, in both mind and body, a state we can not boast today (I completly agree with these two concepts, specially USURY IT IS AGAIN TRIVILISED BY CLERGY, at the minimum).

Badar
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Saleena



Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you kindly Safdar - funnily enough when I read your post I had a paperback copy of the QXP in my hand - quite literally. But of course the QXP text did not contain this particular word (father) with reference to a breakdown examination of the word Allah. So I went to the QXP Online and looked up father to find lahu.

bkanwar2 - My apologies, because what I actually did in my previous post was go off-topic slightly and so I did not actually provide my own suggestion of a breakdown! Smile

So here's my two cents:

The contraction of al illah to Allah basically means that the letter Hamza in illahun has been dropped, probably through popular usage (a bit like how 'all right' is becoming 'alright' in English); and furthermore, the first Lam from the word al (the) has been fused with the second Lam (in lahun) to bring about the term Allah. This fusion of the and deity into one is significant (to me, anyway) but I cannot adequately express it in words. The best I can offer is that to me it highlights the uniqueness of the concept of The-One-God. How we perceive Him (in terms of whether He is external or not, a la Abdun Nur J's posts, even though I agree with much of what he says) is not necessarily the point in discussion here.

Many people have treated the word 'Allah' as a translation for 'the god', based on the contracted al illah, the pre-Islamic term for 'deity'. But the word Allah (of no other derivation) was in use in pre-Islamic Arabia too, to refer to the Supreme force of creation. So the Quranic: La illah ha ill allah simply addresses the Arabs of that period to say: There is no deity (i.e. none of the gods/goddesses of your conceptions), only the Supreme (The-God). The same statement also aims to eliminate the conceptual hierarchy of deities in the Arabs' mind and replace it with Tauheed. Throughout the rest of the Quran there are numerous verses clarifying the difference between One and division of every kind.

To other people it has not represented two words (the and god) but one word, unique in itself; more a designation or title, than a name. G.A. Parwez understood it this way I believe, though he also said that Allah was a name and that the rest of His names are descriptive Attributes. At any rate, I personally agree with this latter group, i.e. that it is a unique word. In line with the concept that Allah is a unique word, derived from no other, I personally believe the word father has no relation to the word Allah.

Hope I have given a relevant answer to what you were asking.

EDIT: Typo
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Last edited by Saleena on Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sidqi



Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The discussion is prolonged, just to prove no point or some personal satisfaction. In my humble opinion, it should be simple and understandable for general readers.

Every human being is born with inner knowledge of some super power named, Allah, God, Rabb, or some one high in sky, as per human traditional thinking. This knowledge is due to a chip embedded in his brain by creator, to transpond with creator through out earth life, till brain is energized with body energy.

For earth phase, we are programmed like, we are. To desire for an angle land is just a wishful desire and its not going to happen. We have knowledge, manuals, weaknesses and powers. You get what you do. Words are not important, deeds are.

Every human once born will live for ever. There is no such thing as death as generally believed. He starts life from moment of fertilization in womb to coming onto earth, to going into grave hibernation, to coming back on judgment day for next phases for ever and ever. Hence there is no such thing as real death or end of life.

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bkanwar2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Free-minds forum has woken up with some responses on the issue. Just share with you.

Badar

Mazhar
Truth Seeker

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Posts: 652
Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 09:47:54 PM » Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
إِنِّي أَنَا رَبُّكَCertainly I am your Sustainer Lord
إِنَّنِي أَنَا اللَّهُ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا أَنَا
Certainly I am Allah, there is no ilaha except Me,

Can the proper name of a Person translated in other language? Or the Person has to be called by One's proper name?

He says "I am Allah", why should we translate it god? You call me Mazhar notwithstanding what it means since it is my proper name. This is Urdu word derived/borrowed from an Arabic Root/word but in every language of the world I will be called Mazhar. All Messengers nothwithstanding their language referred Him, in their conversation with their people, as Allah.

Call Him Allah or Ar Rehman; both these are the Personal Names that should not be translated. He is our Creator and Sustainer Lord. He personally is not the cause nor the effect. He is the Absolute. He is other than Shai {any form of tangible matter/created thing}, rest, whatever exists, is either Shai or from the Shai. Therefore there is no Shai to describe Him by example.

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Someone
Truth Seeker

Posts: 594
Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 10:37:29 PM » Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peace,

Please have a look at previous conversations on this issue:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16710.0

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12618.0

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10049.0

--

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bkanwar2
Beginner/Inquirer

Posts: 42
Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 11:07:43 PM » Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks someone for the links. Brother Mazhar, these links point to the fact that it is not as simple as this being just a proper name. If it was, there would not be so many people asking questions and unable to answer. However, my qurey remains open for the linguists on this board. Please make an attempt to break it down into alphabets.

Badar

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:10:21 PM by bkanwar2 » Report to moderator 205.167.2.27



bkanwar2
Beginner/Inquirer

Posts: 42
Re: Question About Allah?
« Reply #11 on: Today at 03:12:26 PM » Quote Modify

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far what I am getting is that most believe that it is a proper name for the entity: who is creator, originator, maintainer and sustainer of this universe. Some how Arabs of pre-Islamic time knew it even before Quranic revelation. Hence there was nothing wrong with their concept of this entity. Let’s look at this argument closely. If we accept the notion that Arabs had correct idea about this entity and they only created few other smaller gods with small “gs”: then this logic of correct understanding of this entity is shattered right here. Furthermore, if we accept this reasoning as correct than we will have to at least accept that Hindu philosophy of concept of god is correct as well. However, if not, logic and reason tell us that this entity needed to explain the concept about himtself in words that they could have easily understood: as well correct their misconception and not just say that “there is no Illah but The Illah”.

Badar
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