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Impotant Issue Pertaining to Interpretation of Al-Quran

 
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Impotant Issue Pertaining to Interpretation of Al-Quran Reply with quote

I have just found out that Gezm/Sukoon use in Quran implies the separation of words from each other. This fact has huge implications for understanding Quran. Would like more knowledgeables to comment please.

Badar Kanwar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a correction. It appears from the post that Gezm and Sukoon are one and same. However, they are not. Gezm is used to indicated declinable words attached to other words. However, a Sukoon is to indicates a Non Mutherick consonant in a non-declinable word. Still waiting for some comments, further elaborations on the issue. Thanks.

Badar Kanwar
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UmeAimon



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam brother,

For what I had learned during my recitation lessons in my childhood and what my childrens' teacher taught my kids, the difference between gezm and sakoon is that gezm is the "mark" and letter on which it is on is called sakin. So it's the same, we have to stop/sakoon at the letter on which there is Gezm in order not to attach it to the next letter in the same word and is for pronounciation only. So sakoon on a letter represent that when pronouncing the word letter is attached to the preceding letter not to the next one in the same word.

Like in the word Ikhlaaq, sakoon also called gezm sometimes is on letter "kha" and "qaf" means while pronouncing we have to to say ikh, ie stop at kha and not attach it with next letter "la". So the word is pronounced ikh-laaq while sounding not ikh-khal-laaq like in tashdeed.

Similarly if it's on the letter that is at the end of the word then that end letter won't be attached to the next word's letter and is ofcourse a seperate word! Thats all in my humble knowledge.
Maybe someone more knowlegable in arabic grammer can help.

UmeAimon
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Respected Sister, thanks for the reply. What you are saying is common prevailing wisdom. However, this has to do a lot with Muslim mentality of Qur’an just a book for recitation and otherwise too complicated to understand and hence of no use for guidance. This mind frame has led us to be in condition of being "Mahajoor" with it.

Here is relavant discussion from Lane's about this issue.

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000057.pdf

It appears that a Gezm is indicative of last letter of a declinable word. The declinable words from English are

1. Articles. declinable word, companion to the substantive; there are distinct and indistinct articles.
2. Pronouns. declinable word, companion or substitute of a substantive
3. Adjectives. declinable and comparisable word signifying a quality or a feature, used as an attribute or a complement.

Whereas Sukoon is to indicated quiescent letter in an indeclinable word. However, I am still searching the significance of Sakoon in an indeclinable letter.

Furthermore, an intresting question is if the declinable words of classic Arabic match with above English ones or not?

William Wright also concurs with this interpretation in his Grammar Book.

Hence for example Word ALQur’an is a combination of Al, Qur and Aan. Hence, not a proper noun as we know today but should be Al=the, Kur= established and Aan=I.
“THE ONE I ESTABLISHED" (usually used for one with authority.

Would still like comments as it is a relatively new area.

Badar Kanwar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While still waiting for further enlightment. I would like to share this. A sakoon in an indeclinable word implies that first couple of letters in a word carry the actual meanings. Let me further elaborate by some examples.

Let us take an example of word Jezm itself. In the word there is a Sukoon after Jiim on Zal and Miim is seperate. Hence the basic unit of this word that conveys meaning i.e., morpheme is Jez. It can not be broken further. Please see meaning of Jez from Lane's Lexicon, "he cuts"

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000052.pdf

A similar example/concept, but not exactly the same in english. A basic word "at" can become cat by adding "c" at begining, bat by adding "b" , pat by adding "p" and so on.

Badar Kanwar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Due to lack of any intrest, and resposes I decided to post this discussion on free mind web site. I will share responses here for benefit of mutual learning.


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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #1 on: Today at 04:16:02 PM »

Reply with quoteQuote
Peace and welcome,

Arabic words do not get cut off by gazm or sukoon! The words are written in the equivalent of `cursive` in English, that is how you know a word ends (it is disconnected from the word after it).

The `tashkeel` or dialectal marks are merely to help in making the correct pronounciation - I would not dwell too much on that part of the language.

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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #2 on: Today at 05:23:05 PM »

Reply with quoteQuote
This is a quick definition of the difference (and relation) between sukoon and gezm. I hope I am not confusing you further!!


The "tashkeel" is the diatrical signs which either work as short vowels in the word or as a grammatical sign generally at the end of the word. One of these "tashkeel" sign is the "sukoon", indicating absence of a short vowel after a letter, such as in "maktab: مَكْتَب": sukoon will be above the letter "kaaf".

"Gezm" is a grammatical function and has different signs, one of which is the sukoon. It affects verbs, pronouns and prepositions. In the case of pronouns and prepositions, some of them are permanently in gezm, such as (3ann: عنْ ), some are permanently in "fat7", such as (thumma: ثمَّ ) and some are permanently in raf3 (such as na7nu: نحنُ ) and some are permanently in "jarr" such as fii في .

Signs of Gezm for verbs are either sukoon or elimination of a letter.
Example: lam yaktub: لم يكتبْ (the sign of jezm is a sukoon above the last letter which is the baa)
lam yaktubuu: لم يكتبوا (the sign of jezm is the elimination of the nuun in يكتبون and replacing it with an alif)
lam yajri: لم يجرِ and lam yanam لم ينَم(the sign of jezm is the elimination of the final yaa of the verb (yajrii: يجري) and (yanaam ينام )and replacing it with a short vowel of its nature: i, a (kasra and fat7a)
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bkanwar2
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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #3 on: Today at 07:47:07 PM »

Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify
Thanks Samia, little confusing. Could you please elaborate further if possible. Also a reference would be greatly appreciated.

Badar Kanwar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samia, while waiting for you response, here is what I have learned from your post. I thank you very much for that. Please correct me, if I am wrong. You could delete above post which appears as a quote, it was by mistake. I do not see any option to delete my post.

"Taskeel" as a term is applied for Aarabs, applying vowels to letters, hence not relevant to the discussion. Although a discussion by itself. Please read relevant page from Lane under "Shakala alkitab"

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000310.pdf

Whereas diacritical points/signs are called I,Jam. These are dots like on ta, saa etc. Please see Lane below again. Please see middle grid at close to bottom for discussion

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000251.pdf

Both of these do not deal with Gezm and Sukoon. For them please further see below, in addition to Lane above, from William Wright's Grammar book.

http://www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol1.pdf

Any comments, references will be appreciated in this respect. Thanks.

Badar Kanwar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just would like to share with all further discussion from free-minds.org forum.

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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #6 on: Today at 03:26:37 PM » Quote

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Sorry for the late reply.

What I see in Lane's is that tashkeel means i3jaam: adding diacritical points. But since "diacritical" means distinguishing/make distinctive, I do no see why diacritical signs cannot be used for vocalization and diacritical points for adding dotts.

Anyway, just replace vocalization for "tashkeel", although tashkeel is not used for dotting a letter, "i3jaam" is, which roughly means: to clarify.


Quote from: bkanwar2 on July 18, 2008, 11:08:46 PM
"Taskeel" as a term is applied for Aarabs, applying vowels to letters, hence not relavent to the discussion.

Your question is about "sukoon" and "jezm", one of which is a sign of tashkeel /vocalization "the sukoon" and the other is a grammatical state which may lead to the sukoon, one of the signs of jezm "the jezm". How is this not relevant to the discussion?

As for references, I cannot give you a reference all in Arabic, and I do not use references for Arabic grammar in English. But you can surely find many books explaining Arabic grammar in English. I recommend that you look for one for native speaking children, which explains this very clearly (because it is a basic knowledge for native speakers). Books for adults are hardly designed for the non native speaker, and can be a bit complicated, or taking unknown points for guaranted.

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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #7 on: Today at 07:13:44 PM » Quote Modify

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Thanks Samia for belated answer and furthering the discussion. I would like to request that please read the concept of Jezm from Lane: specially in right grid at bottom where he is describing jezmata. I have read it several times and may still need to read few time more.

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000057.pdf

Why it is important? Here is a brief example as to what it does to meanings of Al Qur'an

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

The word Bismi Allahi

Almost all translators assume the root word for "Bismi" is "ASM" with preposition "Bi" attached to it. If a Jezm indicates last letter of a declinable word as Lane is indicating. The break down of "Bismi Allahi " should be as follows,

Bi= a preposition, could have several meaning depending upon usage, here would mean "a"

ASS= with a teshdeed, and "A" is a of wasela, hence could be missing from writting= meaning, a foundation for man/mankind, please see Lane

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000093.pdf

Mi= Min, and will join with Allah i.e., Min Allahi.

Hence, meaning of the part of verse should be " A foundation (A heart, Arabs believed that is the first part that come into exsistence in womb) for men/mankind from Allaha".

Would like your comments please.

Badar Kanwar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #8 on: Today at 07:23:57 PM » Quote

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This is against the universal grammar ruling both spoken and written Arabic: prepositions are not suffixed to nouns; they may only be prefixed. Thus mi (even if such a preposition exists) cannot be suffixed to the ASS.

What law makes "min" "mi"? Is there any (other) occurence of this "mi" in the qur'aan?

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bkanwar2
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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #9 on: Today at 07:43:12 PM » Quote Modify

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Samia, first of all Grammar rules were developed much later to understand Al Qur'an, when linguistic chaos was already taking place.

Furthermore, where did I imply that it is suffixed to a noun. It is not. It is a prefix to a noun i.e., Allahi. It is we who have some how assumed that Arabic is cursive in script exacltly like English as Layth suggested above. It is only cursive, partly in script. However, words can be written in cursive joined together, but seperations are indicated by marks of "jezm and "sukoon". Hope this helps.

Badar Kanwar MD FCCP

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bkanwar2
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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #10 on: Today at 08:35:57 PM » Quote Modify

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What law makes "min" "mi"? Is there any (other) occurence of this "mi" in the qur'aan?

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore this question. The law for shortening the Min to Mi is from Arabic poetry, same as ala can be a. Examples are mil-ibili "from the camels", and al-mai mening "on the water (Ref:A GRAMMAR OF CLASSICAL ARABIC by Wolfdietrich Fischer 3rd edition page 152). Furthermore, here is the referance from Lane.

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000270.pdf

Does it occur in Qur'an? most likely. But you have a task cut out for me for several days. Thanks for it, this is how learning is enhanced: and thats what we as believers, should be doing. Al-Furqan will be the ultimate criteria.

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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 01:37:11 AM » Quote

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on August 01, 2008, 07:43:12 PM
Samia, first of all Grammar rules were developed much later to understand Al Qur'an, when linguistic chaos was already taking place.

I was speaking of universal grammar that rules the sentence construction, not the grammar.

Quote from: bkanwar2 on August 01, 2008, 07:43:12 PM
Furthermore, where did I imply that it is suffixed to a noun. It is not. It is a prefix to a noun i.e., Allahi. It is we who have some how assumed that Arabic is cursive in script exacltly like English as Layth suggested above. It is only cursive partly in script. However, words can be written in cursive joined together, but seperations are indicated by marks of "jezm and "sukoon". Hope this helps.

Badar Kanwar


I wish you could write your senetnce in Arabic. Is this what you mean: باس مالله؟ ?

Quote from: bkanwar2 on August 01, 2008, 08:35:57 PM
What law makes "min" "mi"? Is there any (other) occurence of this "mi" in the qur'aan?

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore this question. The law for shortening the Min to Mi is from Arabic poetry, same as ala can be a. Examples are mil-ibili "from the camels", and al-mai mening "on the water (Ref:A GRAMMAR OF CLASSICAL ARABIC by Wolfdietrich Fischer 3rd edition page 152). Furthermore, here is the referance from Lane.

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000270.pdf


I know of something like "mil__ for min al__" in the Cairo dialect only.
But what I understood from Lane is that he was talking about "min" following another preposition such as another min, ila, 3an, etc..; as in mimma; ilaama; 3amma... all used as interrogation articles. As for "rubba: rubbama", this is not an interrogation article. These have occurences in the qur'aan, but not mi:

Quote
. مـ for the interrogative ما; immediately following
a prep.:

So, in Arabic, here are the two connected preposition, ending with مـ for من:
عن ما: عمّ ؛ من ما: ممَّ؛ إلى ما: إلامَ

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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #12 on: Today at 06:40:53 PM » Quote Modify

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Quote from: Samia on Yesterday at 01:37:11 AM
"I was speaking of universal grammar that rules the sentence construction, not the grammar".


Thanks Samia for this clearification.


Quote from: Samia on Yesterday at 01:37:11 AM
I wish you could write your senetnce in Arabic. Is this what you mean: باس مالله؟ ?

No, what I am understanding using the concept of sign "jezm", indicating the final letter of a word is as follows: that a portion of written script could have more than one word combined together. However, this sign demarks word seperation. Hence not should only be read seperatly, but as well be understood seperatly as regards meaning. This would obviously lead to diffrent roots.

BiAss Mi Allhai or once "Mi" is seperated from BiAss it should be written as BiAss Min Allahi. It is only issue of Morphology or Al Surf, of written scripture. I have not seen lot of work from Arabs on this issue, have you. Please share.

How are you able to type in Arabic? Please teach me.

Also Lane has referances for the concept of Jezm from Arabic lexicons. If you have access to those could you please, confirm or refute his understanding with referances. Thanks

Just to continue verse's understanding further

becomes الرَّحْمَنِ

Ar reh Mani= "Ar="The" , Reh "ample and easy state of life that man can not think by himself (see Lane)

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000216.pdf
http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000217.pdf

MAani= from one who undertakes your sustinance and maintenance.

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000270.pdf

Badar Kanwar MD., FCCP

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bkanwar2
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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #13 on: Today at 06:51:17 PM » Quote Modify

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Hence so far verse

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ

Becomes like this

" A foundation (A heart, Arabs believed that is the first part that come into exsistence in womb) for man/mankind from Allaha" for "The" "ample and easy state of life that man can not think by himself" "from one who undertakes your sustinance and maintenance".

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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To continue to share discussion with you from Free-minds.

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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 07:02:55 PM » Quote

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Peace bkanwar2,

http://www.indiana.edu/~arabic/typing_arabic.htm
Type a word, and then copy-paste..

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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 07:05:27 PM » Quote

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Thanks, a million.

Badar Kanwar

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bkanwar2
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Re: A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation
« Reply #16 on: Today at 04:52:29 PM » Quote

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Samia, while waiting for your help about the issues indicated in the previous post. Let me continue to share my understanding that stems from concept of Jezm/sukoon

الرَّحِيمِ

Ar=Al "the" Rahimi= "Mercy"= The mercy

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000221.pdf

الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ

Al= "the" Ham= "the decree"

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000271.pdf

Du= "in the land"

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000094.pdf

Li= "on account of" Allahi

so this part of verse should read as " The decree for the land on account of Allah"

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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From free-minds.org
I just want to bring this topic to forefront again. It is important as it has huge implication regarding Qur’anic understanding. I know that lot of contributors on this forum are doing very important work. One such work being assigning roots to the Qur’anic words. This concept of Jezm and Sukoon is very important in this respect.

Let us elaborate this with an example.
In translation of Sura Fatiha, the word
نَسْتَعِينُ

Almost everyone says, it's root to be ع و ن. However, I could not find a word like this in Lane under this root; nor could I find a grammatical explanation of any inflections. Although, if we separate it into two based on understanding of Jezm and Sukoon It becomes نس and تعين. Now it becomes very easy and clear. تعين IS PRESENT UNDER ROOT ع ى ن and نس UNDER ن س س

Badar
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UmeAimon



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

salam dr. Bader,

I found many words missing in Lanes dictionary too or maybe it's the online version. Anyway, if it can be of any help, do you understand Urdu? If you do, I recommend you read Lughat ul Quran and Mafhoom ulQuran by GA Parvez, you can get it from tolueislam.com. It has more than 25000 Arabic root words and ways to understand the Quran words as understood by Quresh Arabs. I heard from one of GA Parvez audio lectures, it's some 50 plus years of his work on arabic language and Quran. Hope it will help you find what you are looking for.

jazakAllah

UmeAimon
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sister, Salam and thanks. Yes, Urdu is my mother tongue. I do have G.A Pervaiz's both mentioned books. This is a great work by a great scholar. However, it has certain limitations. In my humble opinion Lane's work is more comprehensive and complete, albiet not perfect either. Lane tried to translate all word's of Qureshi language not just Quranic. Hence it is much richer resource than Pervaiz's work in lots of respect. But thanks for the suggestions.

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A request to linguists on this board. Please share your understanding of TESHDID. Thanks.

Badar
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