Our Beacon Forum Index Back to Homepage
Our Beacon
Salamun alaikum!
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Death of all prophets martyred/natural

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Our Beacon Forum Index -> General Discussions and News
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 8
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Death of all prophets martyred/natural Reply with quote

Some shia sect believe that all prohets were shaheed (martyred). Therefore they do matam (chest beating) for them aIso along with Husain (RA). I would like to know if this is true.

Adam (AS): ?
Noah (AS): ?
Moses (AS): ?
Jesus (AS): ?
Muhammad (AS): natural death due to ill health.
Shahu Nadir
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dr. Shabbir
Site Admin

Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 1333
Location: Florida, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Shahu Bhai, AA

As far as I recall, the Qur'an nowhere names a single prophet who was martyred. Yes, there is a general statement in the Qur'an that some prophets were assassinated.

4:155 They incurred condemnation for breaking their Covenant, rejecting Allah’s Revelations, and killing the Prophets wrongfully. And for saying, “Our hearts are wrapped up; we have made up our minds.” Nay, Allah's Law sets the seal on their hearts because of their persistent denial. They lost their faculties of reasoning. So they do not acknowledge the Truth, except a few.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 186
Location: dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as a note of interest, my Christian scripture states that Satan disputed with the Archangel Michael, for the body of Moses. This is in the book of Jude, verse 9.

The verse is also interesting in that it denotes chain of command, in that the created being, had received his authority for claiming the physical remains of Moses, from the highest authority. smile

Your scripture also teaches of great angels, including Harut and Marut, in the city of Babylon. Al- Baqarah 102 "Word on the street" is they are trussed up and hanging upside down in a well in Babylon as punishment. (I fully expect a reprimanding squawk for this! But it was recounted to me anyway. smile)

Tammy Swofford
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Arnold Yasin Mol

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

salam aleikum,

Dear Tammy, your answer has nothing to do with the question. First I wanted to delete it, but I believed it was again time to remind you of some things:

1.If you knew already that you were gonna get refuted, why bother to post it? Also this is so off-topic. It seems you only do this to provoke or to show off you know things about Islam. Dont't worry we know you know the N2I very well, which is very good.

But here on Our Beacon we reject all nonsense that goes against the Quran.

2.The Quran calls the story of Harut and Marut 'hazaliat' meaning 'nothing but falsehood'. If you would have studied it a bit better you would have known this very simple term. The Quran doesn't even acknowledge these angels. If you would have used QXP or Muhammed Asad's or even Muhammed Ali's translation, you would have known this. If you want to keep in lines of the Forum Policy, you must study these so you know what is in line and what is not.

3. Also being smartass. It is not the Christian Scripture. It is one of The Scripture. It is for all mankind to learn from, just as the Quran.

Next time your post will deleted if it is again so unnecessary offtopic. Please study QXP or at least even the other above mentioned translations, which explain the Arabic used before posting such issues. Translations as Yusuf Ali's fall completely short on these terms.

You are a nice person, but sometimes your post things which make me doubt you.
Back to top

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 186
Location: dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dearest Respected Arnold,
Never doubt my incredibly good sense of humor, which at times also sneaks out onto the forum to stir up the incredibly serious Muslim. I have personally only heard one joke from a Muslim and it it about a Pakistani General. Naturally, out of respect for Dr. Shabbir, I will not post it. smile

Yes, Yusuf Ali falls short on translation, just as there remains diversity of opinion as to the exact meaning of "jinn" or "Shaitan" for example, among the various scholars.

Was it not the Prophet himself who said that the differences of opinion among the ulema are a sign of God's grace? And why is that? Because we all know that free enquiry allows for discussion, which then causes the truth to be self-evident. Thank you for your rebuttal, which I fully expected.

I will try to contain my smile! It definitely hides a bit of mischief at times.

R/Tammy Swofford
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dr. Shabbir
Site Admin

Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 1333
Location: Florida, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear LCDR,

Arnold keeps amazing me! He is just 24 and he was a Christian like you not long ago. Notice he is rebutting an outstanding mind of Tammy - Oh, how convincingly, confidently and beautifully (and yes, very strongly, the typical western mode Smile

I am a true fan of AY. And I would be a true fan of our LCDR if she ever turned to Al-Islam from N2I.

2:102 (They followed conjecture in the past as well.) Some rebellious folk spread a rumor in the Kingdom of Solomon. Solomon never disbelieved in the Divine Laws, but the rebellious ones did. They fabricated a story that two angels Harut and Marut had descended in Babylon and taught magic to some people - and that they used to warn people, “We are only a temptation, therefore be not oblivious to the rational Divine Laws.” The rumor further stated that people learned magic from both of them and how to create discord between a man and his wife. These things can neither harm nor benefit anyone since nothing happens in the Universe contrary to the immutable Divine Laws of Nature. And that which they try to learn only harms them and profits them not. Indeed, they ought to know that any person indulging in this trade (the so-called “Occult sciences”) will be a loser in the long run, and shall have no portion in the Hereafter. And surely, evil is the price for which they sell their humanity, if they only knew better.

[The entire story of Harut, Marut is 'Hazaliat' (nothing but falsehood.) Magic, amulets, ghoul, demon-possession, exorcism, witchcraft, evil eye, fortune telling, astrology, palm reading, clairvoyance, voodoo are nothing but conjecture.
Superstitions can harm people by becoming self-fulfilling prophecies. 3:123-127, 6:73, 7:54, 45:22]

Dear LCDR, please reflect that your Christian belief in superstitions such as demon-possession of people is a drag on the human intellect. You could be a speed-boat without that baggage, not that you are a trailer now Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arnold Yasin Mol

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam Aleikum,

Dear Tammy,

I'm sorry to say but I'm a bit sceptic if it was 'humour' that you intended. It has nothing to do with being a 'serious person' or not. It is pure the intention that can be read. If you knew that it was gonna refuted then it was meant to provoke, to cause a reaction. This is not allowed on the forum and is also unpeacefull behaviour. If you have peacefull intentions, then you could have used different way of posting.

You knew we reject this nonsense. So you could have said 'I know you people reject this based on the Quran, but the majority beliefs....'. But no, you didn't use this simple way of expression. You used 'This is what the verse says and this is what they say and I know you are gonna refute me'.

Quite a different way of expression isn't it? You wanted to create a response, you provoked it. Because you don't stay objective, by saying 'this is what they say and this is what you say'. No, you throw in the N2I beliefs as if it were a grenade and wait for the pop. Sadly this is very childish and also below your stature.

I read this immediately, and this is also why I was deciding between to delete it or respond to it. I wanted to show I knew the intention, but you only say:

Thank you for your rebuttal, which I fully expected.

I'm glad I satisfied your need for provoking reaction....From now on this need will not be satisfied if you post in this way again.

This has gone totaly off-topic, and so only posts referring to the topic of 'martyred prophets' will be allowed.

The Quran records that the people who told these lies were: alshshayateen=satans=Person who were far from the Truth and from Allah

And what they told people is called alssihra=Sihr=Falsehood presented as Truth through eloquent speech.

To translate it as sorcery is wrong, as it takes away the correct definition. Sihr always implies a non-truth brought in a convincing matter. So sorcery to be possible is completely denied by the Quran. When you translate it as 'sorcery', it doesn't deny at all if sorcery is true or not. Sihr completely describes it as Falsehood, lies. The Quran rejects Jibt, belief in the supernatural.

Also it cannot refer to 'Angels' as angels don't walk among men or have free intercourse with them, see 17:95 and 21:8. Malikah, or 'Angels' refer to the forces of Nature, to powerfull men and a lot more. It doesn't refer at all to the mythical beings of Greek/Persian/Egyptian Mythology.

So main commentary reports on the Quran mostly say it means '2 kings' and not '2 angels'. And that it refers to the magicians of Babylon.

The person who taught you is completely blinded by Hadith based on the Bible and Talmud. He didn't even see this simple clear Arabic meaning. I hope you can now. What the majority beliefs doesn't matter. If the majority beliefs the earth to be flat, does this really make the earth flat? We are trying to teach the Muslims logic again.

If you are interrested in seeing this development, which I know you are. Then I suggest to formulate your posts differently from now on. Don't try to stir a reaction in this way, as it looks arrogant and provocative. And it is also unnecessary. Read QXP and see first what we believe, and then you can present both sides in a normal way and not like 'I am waiting for your reaction people as I know you don't agree with this...'

tammyswofford wrote:

Yes, Yusuf Ali falls short on translation, just as there remains diversity of opinion as to the exact meaning of "jinn" or "Shaitan" for example, among the various scholars.

This is because the scholars are being influenced by 1,4 million hadith over which they can't agree on. If they just had focussed on the clear Arabic meaning and the Quran's use. They would have seen that these words are not titles but descriptions, under which many things can fall. Jinn simply means 'rarely seen' as for example it is also used for 'snake', we all know snakes are not invisible are they? It also means 'not observed by human senses' or 'concealed for human vision'. Many things can fall under these descriptions, legends, dead leaders, illusions, made up idols, people in powerful positions, nomads and jungle people and so on.

Satan/shaitan comes from 'shaat' meaning 'long rope', and Shaitan meaning 'Anything distanced from progress, Truth and Allah'. Very simple descriptions of attributes which can be shared by thousands of things and beings. Arabic is simple, clear and very good to interpretate. But the scholars are confused because they are stuck in traditional writings which have a high falsehood rate. Please read my book on the word 'jinn' and 'shaitan' in the Quran:

Jinn in the Quran
Back to top

Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assalamalikum wa Rahmathullahi wa Thaala wa Barkathuhu Respected Tammyswoford...

3:103 You must hold fast, all of you together, to the Bond of Allah and be not divided into sects………………….

2:143 Thus, We have made you a Balanced Community that you may be witnesses to the Truth among all mankind and that the Messenger be a witness among you……………………..

42:13 He has ordained for you all, the same System of Life that He enjoined upon Noah - And We have revealed to you (O Prophet) the same Message as We enjoined upon Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: "Establish the Divine System of Life and make no sects in it.” (O Prophet) Hard it is upon the idolaters (those who worship false 'authorities') the unity you call to. Allah draws unto Himself everyone who is willing, and guides unto Himself everyone who turns unto Him.” (Sects vs. Unity: 3:32, 3:104, 6:160, 30:31, 42:13, 45:17-18).

23:52 And verily, this community of yours is one community and I am your Sustainer. So, walk aright remaining conscious of Me.” (Since all Messengers were one Brotherhood unanimous in purpose, all mankind must consider one another as brothers and sisters).

20:94 Aaron said, "O Son of my mother! Don't get mad at me, nor treat me harshly. I feared that you would say, “You have let the Children of Israel divide into parties and sects." (Moses accepted this explanation since sectarianism is no less a crime than idol worship in any form. Seizing the beard and head pertains to harsh interrogation 7:150).

16:64 And upon you (O Prophet) We have revealed this Book so that you may clearly explain to people the reality of those things in which they differ (and thus help them become one community). And this Book is a Guidance and Mercy for people who will believe.
11:118 Had your Lord so willed, He could have made all mankind one single community, (but He has granted them free will as against other creatures 5:48). Therefore, they will continue to hold divergent views

11:119 Except those on whom your Lord will bestow His Grace (for working toward the Noble Objective of unity). And for this He created them. Those who defy (this Command) will fulfill the Word of your Lord, “Verily, I shall fill Hell with the nomad and urban mankind all together

Likewise He would have instinctively compelled the entire mankind to follow the same conduct of life. But He has not done so. He has showered freedom of thought and action to the mankind. It means "if they wish, they may live the life of harmony and unity; and if they desire otherwise, they may create chaos and distraction." But they were made this fact clear that the life of chaos and distraction is the life of chastisement and that of leading the life of one single Ummat is the life of Rahmat and auspicious prosperity. But this oneness can only be obtained and sustained if you
make the Book of Allah the code of your life on the breath of your vision and from the deepest recesses of your heart and mind. If you do so, you clinch the goal of your life.

3:105 Now, be not as those who are divided and hold conflicting views after all evidence of the Truth has come unto them. For, it is they, they who incur a tremendous doom.

30:31 Turn unto Him alone then, and be mindful of Him, and establish the Divine System and be not of the MUSHRIKEEN who ascribe authorities along with Him. (2:213).

30:32 The MUSHRIKEEN that split up their religion becoming sects - each sect delighting in whatever beliefs they have. (3:104, 6:160, 23:53, 42:13. Sectarianism is invariably based upon taking humans as ‘authorities’).

6:159 (There is only one Straight Path.) O Messenger! Those who break the unity of their DEEN and become sects, you have nothing to do with them whatsoever. Behold, their case will go to Allah and He will tell them what they had been doing.

These were the broad guidelines imparted to the Muslims for the organization of one compact Ummat. In the light of these guidelines, the Rasoolullah developed a united Ummat. And you now.

Ikhtelaaf-e-Ummatee Rahmah.


Now the justificatory reason gush forth. says that the
Rasoolullah has said: " (Dissention in my Ummat is Rahmat)". Did
you think as to what the crux of the matter is? It means the dissension about which the Quran had explicitly said: "It is Allah’s chastisement; it is a cause of Kufr and a source of anathema (Shirk)", now about this same dissension it is said that the Messenger of Allah (God forbid) has denoted it as a blessing of Allah, a fountain of His Rahmat. Whosoever has even a bit of know-how of the teaching of the Quran will unhesitatingly say that this sentence of the Arabic language cannot be the quote of the Messenger of Allah. The Messenger (S) would have never told as such. How is it possible that Allah may call a thing as a chastisement and His Messenger may term it as His blessing, His Rahmat!

Fee Amanillah
Ali Bin Ali Alharbi Al Madina
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Our Beacon Forum Index -> General Discussions and News All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group