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Help with Quranic Word!

 
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:01 pm    Post subject: Help with Quranic Word! Reply with quote

bkanwar2
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Help with Quranic Word!
« on: Yesterday at 09:39:42 PM »

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لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ

I am requesting to please help me understand the part of this word in red until following alphabet with mark of first Jezm. Could some one tell. What alphabet it incoporate and their meaning? Everyone tells me it is Lil. If it is "Lil", what is it's meaning? Why I can not find "Lil" in lexicon? Thanks.

Badar Kanwar

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:40:59 PM by bkanwar2 » Logged



Pseudo
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 11:27:39 PM »

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Peace,

If not mistake, seems due to no punctuation marks in the old Arabic so letters were used.

Similar to writing: “John’s” or “to John”

Crucial for proper context; example lilrrahmani:

19:91 ان دعوا للرحمن ولدا
That they called to The Merciful a child

Without lil renders meaning of the verse different.



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bkanwar2
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #2 on: Today at 04:57:59 PM »

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Thanks brother
للرحمن

This is a case of word, الرحمن. If the preposition, لِ is added. It looses its first Alif and becomes, what you have cited above. However, in the word in question there appear to be three consonants. First one has teshdeed, suggestive of a doubling of consonant, followed by another one with Jezm.

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 10:39:23 PM » Quote

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It is same with lilmumineena ل ل م ؤ م ن ي ن as in: “when you say to/towards the believers”

3:124 اذ تقول للمؤمنين الن يكفيكم ان يمدكم ربكم بثلاثة الاف من الملائكة منزلين



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bkanwar2
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #4 on: Today at 04:42:42 PM » Quote Modify

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Thanks again. No it is not the same. First Lam in Lilrahamani (it is read as Lirrahamani) has no teshdeed, hence first lam is alone. Second lam is written but has no vowel, hence not pronounced, only written. Howerver, in example I have cited the first consonant has a teshdeed. It implies doubling of consonant. If it is lam, it is double Lam. It is followed by another consonant with jezm. Question is, it can not be a third lam. Other alphabet that can appear similar to lam in cursive could be Alif. So question remains what is the meaning of this? Thanks for trying. Majority seem not even bothered about the issue, like most other issue facing us.

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samia
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 10:31:25 AM » Quote

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There's no shadda on the first letter. Shaddas do not exist on initial letters.

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bkanwar2
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #6 on: Today at 03:33:08 AM » Quote Modify

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So Sis, your are implying there is a mistake in Quran? How do we reconcil this? I am mean where is the Gold strandard for print of Quran that one can look up to for comparison? Thanks.

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samia
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #7 on: Today at 02:06:38 PM » Quote

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on Today at 03:33:08 AM
So Sis, your are implying that there is a mistake in Quran? How do we reconcile this? I am mean, where is the Gold strandard for print of Quran, that one can look up to for comparison? Thanks.

Badar


Not a mistake in the qur'aan. If this was really printed this way, it's the mistake of whoever put this shadda. Practically, one cannot pronounce an initial letter with a shadda. The shadda is actually two similar letters assimilated where the first one is not followed by a short vowel (has a sukuun). Putting a shadda on an initial letter means the first assimilated one has a sukuun. Arabic does not support an initial letter with a sukuun, hence nor with a shadda. This is why Arabs in general have a problem pronouncing names like "Smith" without inserting a short vowel before the "S", such as pronouncing it as "iSmith".

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #8 on: Today at 02:50:02 PM » Quote

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Salam Sisiter,

There seems to be some confusion. The issue is not that some print of Quran has the first word with shadda. His problem appears to be about shadda on ل at these places:

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ قَدْ جَاءَتْكُم مَّوْعِظَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَشِفَاءٌ لِّمَا فِي الصُّدُورِ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةٌ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ{Refer 10:57}
Other places are:15:77;17:82; 24:30; 27:77; 29:44; 45:3;48:20;

Except at one place 24:20 the preceding word has the Nunnation. Waiting for enlightning response. Thanks.

What I could understand is that "Lil" is ل+definite article ال. When ل enters as "for him, them" the ا gets omitted and ل also gets assimilated by any of the following sun consonants, therefore has no sign on it like لِلرَّحْمَنِ. With the following moon consonant the ل is pronounced, therefore has a symbol of سكون on it.

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bkanwar2
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #9 on: Today at 06:18:58 PM » Quote Modify

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Quote from: Samia on Today at 02:06:38 PM
Not a mistake in the qur'aan. If this was really printed this way, it's the mistake of whoever put this shadda. Practically, one cannot pronounce an initial letter with a shadda. The shadda is actually two similar letters assimilated where the first one is not followed by a short vowel (has a sukuun). Putting a shadda on an initial letter means the first assimilated one has a sukuun. Arabic does not support an initial letter with a sukuun, hence nor with a shadda. This is why Arabs in general have a problem pronouncing names like "Smith" without inserting a short vowel before the "S", such as pronouncing it as "iSmith".


Sis, how have you come to this conclusion marked in red? Shadda has nothing to do with Sukkun or Harkat. If you see the example word there is a Kesra, in addtion to shadda. Although, it became a Fetha when I coppied. Hence, argument that first letter has no Harkat and therefore shadda equates to sukkun does not appear valid. So please consider this. In addtion use of shadda at the begin of word is not limited to this word only. Therefore, the argument of this being a printing error is not valid either. Mazhar has given some instances and I can as well.

Thanks for trying and participating in the discussion.

Your brother in Islam.

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mazhar
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 06:42:01 PM » Quote

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Quote
Hence, argument that first letter has no Harkat and therefore shadda equates to sukkun does not appear valid. So please consider this. In addtion use of shadda at the begin of word is not limited to this word only.

The confusion is because of not differentiating between "first letter" as Samia said, and "beginning of word". First letter means first letter of a sentence.

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bkanwar2
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 10:00:19 PM » Quote

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Dear Mazhar, please elaborate further. I am not getting your point.

Badar

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #12 on: Today at 07:14:52 AM » Quote

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Quote from: Mazhar on Yesterday at 02:50:02 PM
Salam Sisiter,

There seems to be some confusion. The issue is not that some print of Quran has the first word with shadda. His problem appears to be about shadda on ل at these places:

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ قَدْ جَاءَتْكُم مَّوْعِظَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَشِفَاءٌ لِّمَا فِي الصُّدُورِ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةٌ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ{Refer 10:57}
Other places are:15:77;17:82; 24:30; 27:77; 29:44; 45:3;48:20;



This serves for pronunciation, not grammar. It's another way of assimilation "idghaam إدغلم " and has nothing to do with arabic as a language or the understnding of the qur'aan. This is when assimilating the nunnation in the previous word with some specific initial letters of the following word. In such a case, the sound of the nuun (which has sukuun) in the nuunation disappears (gets assimilated): warahmatal lilmu'mineen : ورحمتلّلمؤمنين .


Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 06:18:58 PM
Sis, how have you come to this conclusion marked in red? Shadda has nothing to do with Sukkun or Harkat. If you see the example word there is a Kesra, on the alphabet, in addtion to a shadda- which according to my understanding only implies doubling of corresponding consonant.
Your brother in Islam.

Badar


Shadda is all about sukuun and haraka. It also serves in assimilating the lam of the definite article (which has sukuun) with the sun letters. The fatha or kasra you see under the shadda, or the damma above, are the original short vowels of the second letter. Case of the pronunciation resulting from the assimilation of the definite article ال with some "sun" letters:

ذِئاب + الْ : اذِّئاب
شَمس +الْ : اشَّمس
رُؤوس +الْ : ارُّؤوس

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bkanwar2
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #13 on: Today at 04:54:08 PM » Quote Modify

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Thanks Sis again. Could you please post a break down of high lighted part of word in question as to best of your understanding.

Badar
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dearest humble "apprentice",

I love your choice of the word 'apprentice'.

Smile

I keep trying and praying to find a JUGNOO (firefly) to brighten your path.

With profound affection and regards,

Shabbir
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samia
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 07:14:52 AM » Quote

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Quote from: Mazhar on February 08, 2009, 02:50:02 PM
Salam Sisiter,

There seems to be some confusion. The issue is not that some print of Quran has the first word with shadda. His problem appears to be about shadda on ل at these places:

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ قَدْ جَاءَتْكُم مَّوْعِظَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَشِفَاءٌ لِّمَا فِي الصُّدُورِ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةٌ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ{Refer 10:57}
Other places are:15:77;17:82; 24:30; 27:77; 29:44; 45:3;48:20;



This serves for pronunciation, not grammar. It's another way of assimilation "idghaam إدغلم " and has nothing to do with arabic as a language or the understnding of the qur'aan. This is when assimilating the nunnation in the previous word with some specific initial letters of the following word. In such a case, the sound of the nuun (which has sukuun) in the nuunation disappears (gets assimilated): warahmatal lilmu'mineen : ورحمتلّلمؤمنين .


Quote from: bkanwar2 on February 08, 2009, 06:18:58 PM
Sis, how have you come to this conclusion marked in red? Shadda has nothing to do with Sukkun or Harkat. If you see the example word there is a Kesra, on the alphabet, in addtion to a shadda- which according to my understanding only implies doubling of corresponding consonant.
Your brother in Islam.

Badar


Shadda is all about sukuun and haraka. It also serves in assimilating the lam of the definite article (which has sukuun) with the sun letters. The fatha or kasra you see under the shadda, or the damma above, are the original short vowels of the second letter. Case of the pronunciation resulting from the assimilation of the definite article ال with some "sun" letters:

ذِئاب + الْ : اذِّئاب
شَمس +الْ : اشَّمس
رُؤوس +الْ : ارُّؤوس

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bkanwar2
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 04:54:08 PM » Quote

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Thanks Sis again. Could you please post a break down of high lighted part of word in question as to best of your understanding.

Badar

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 06:42:12 PM » Quote

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 04:54:08 PM
Thanks Sis again. Could you please post a break down of high lighted part of word in question as to best of your understanding.

Badar


I hope I understood your request :

مؤمنين + الْ + لِ

الـْمؤمنين + لِ

لِـلـْمؤمنين

(The alif of the definite article is removed according to the rules of Arabic)

رحمةَ : رحمتنْ

رحمتنْ لِلْمؤمنين : رحمتلْ + لِلْمؤمنين

رحمتلْلِلْمؤمنين
لْلِ = لِّ
رحمتلِّـلْمؤمنين
This is a breakdown for the pronunciation, although it'swritten رحمةً لِلْمؤمنين , just like the alif of the definite article: it's written but not pronounced if preceded by even one letter.

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 06:57:33 PM » Quote

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Thanks Sis again. What appears to me that this high lighted part, is so to say is certain words, in modren term zipped together. Please just try to only break it down in the order you understand the alphabets are written with corresponding vowels. This will help us all to determine, what comes out?

Badar

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 07:23:17 PM » Quote

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Dear Brother and sister

A very mind opening discussion seen here.

Please correct me if I am wrong. What I understood from the replies and from the grammar book, is as follows:

Shadda means the consonant in question is repeated twice.
In some places we see the similar word with a shadda on the initial letter and in some places without shadda. This hopefully should not be just a typing error in the holy book and should not have been done only for the purpose of correct pronunciation. Could it therefore represent additional consonant with an additional meaning conveyed there, such as:

Li and La or is it Lil??

If it is meant to be Li and La in some places could it mean that we need to understand it as Li = Let and La = not in that particular instance.
If there is no shadda, then it could be Lil and the meaning would be as elaboraed by other learned individuals in the post.

What we probably need to do is to separate out places where it is with Shadda and where it is without shadda. We then need to check if meaning is more appropriate saying "Let not" as the translation where there is shadda ( assuming it is Li-La) and the other meaning in places where there is no shadda ( assuming it is Lil )
May be picture will become more clear if we use this method in understaning the complete concept presented in that particular Ayat in question.

If this is correct as above, this will open up a newer understanding in script writing tecniques utilised by the Arabs at the time of the Prophet (S)

Please forgive me if I am wrong. But this is very very interesting.

Regards

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bkanwar2
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #17 on: Today at 07:38:37 PM » Quote Modify

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Thanks kn, your are very close to what I am trying to say. In fact Alkitab has used both words, though these are combination of words not just one word. Let me give example from Alkitab itself.

لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ 2:2 , 2:66,3:138, 5:46, 21:48, 24:34, 69:48


Where as لِلْمُتَّقِينَ 3:133, 11:49, 25:74, 26:90, 28:30, 38:30, 43:45, 50:31, 68:34.

Hence, evidence from Alkitab without any doubt makes it amply evident that these are two different combinations of words.

Badar
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have added Arabic break down at Free-minds site. Just because type font are more versatile in display there. I am putting link here, instead of cut and past.

Badar

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597852.15
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bkanwar2



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samia
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #18 on: Today at 07:12:38 AM » Quote

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 07:38:37 PM
Thanks kn, your are very close to what I am trying to say. In fact Alkitab has used both words, though these are combination of words not just one word. Let me give example from Alkitab itself.

لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ2:2, 2:66,3:138, 5:46, 21:48, 24:34, 69:48


Where as لِلْمُتَّقِينَ 3:133, 11:49, 25:74, 26:90, 28:30, 38:30, 43:45, 50:31, 68:34.

Hence, evidence from Alkitab without any doubt makes it amply evident that these are two different combinations of words.



Look at the words precedig لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ and you will find that they all end with a nunnation, whereas the words precedingلِلْمُتَّقِينَ do not. This is the only differencec and explains what I posted earlier regarding rules of assimilation concerning pronunciation only.
You can check the same for " للمؤمنين " or any other word starting with a ل ، م ، ن ) 5: 5, 5:6 , 3:23 (This last verse has a a word with an initial letter similar to the last letter of the preceding word: لن نـَّدخلها)

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #19 on: Today at 07:24:21 PM » Quote Modify

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Thanks Sis again. Before we continue our discussion further, let me very humbly ask you this. Do you agree that tenwins are vowels.

Badar
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samia
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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 08:18:49 PM » Quote

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 07:24:21 PM
Thanks Sis again. Before we continue our discussion further, let me very humbly ask you this. Do you agree that tenwins are vowels.

Badar


Yes it's: Tanween is illustrated by vowels; it's grammar and marker for the indefinite.

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 09:43:26 PM » Quote

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Thanks, Sis. Then the rule you have cited does not apply in case under discussion. لن نـَّدخلها, this and other examples you have cited are example of what is called euphonic teshdeed. It is a case of Shamsi letters. In this situation preceeding consonant does not have a vowel. Another classic and well know example, similar to yours cited above: that you have equated to لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ, is use of ال. In these cases tesdeed is used to avoid harsness of sound of vowelless consonant that preceed teshdeed. It assimilates preceeding voweless consonant with the following consonant. Just like in الرَّحْمنُ. However, in our Qur'anic structure under discussion, this is not the case. We just agreed upon that tenwin is a vowel. Hence, the tesdeed on لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ can not be just euphonic- like you are suggesting, because in all cases it is preceeded by vowel tenwin.
Just one example 69:48 لَتَذْكِرَةٌ لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ

Please read this issue in William Wright's Book vol.1 pages 13-16.

http://www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol1.pdf

With lots of respect and very humbly, your brother in Islam.

Badar

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #22 on: Today at 10:06:05 AM » Quote

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on Yesterday at 09:43:26 PM
Thanks, Sis. Then the rule you have cited does not apply in case under discussion. لن نـَّدخلها, this and other examples you have cited are example of what is called euphonic teshdeed. It is a case of Shamsi letters.
http://www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol1.pdf



Shamsi letters work with the definite article. It's one part of assimilation, together with double similar letters (or phonemes) where the first has a sukuun. These two examples work within the one wrod. Another kind of assimilation works accross two words, one of them is لن نـَّدخلها, where two similar letters where the first one has a sukuun but exists as the final letter of the preceding word (part two of the first kind):

First kind (within the same word):

1- Case of shamsi letters
2- Two similar letters where the first has a sukuun
3- Two phonemes where the first has a sukuun, such : IDDala3a اطَّلع where the طَّ is actually an assimilation of the original ط and the ت of the pttern of form VIII : طلع put in the form افتعل = اتْطَلع = اطَّلع
Second kind (accros two adjacent words)

1- Two similar letters where the first is the final letter of the first word and is in sukuun, and the second is the initial letter of the followig word.
2- When the first letter of the second word is ل ، م ، ن and the final letter of the preceding word carries a nunnation.

Second kind: where two different words are assimilated in one word:

Mostly case of prepositions where two phonemes are in two different adjacent words. such as the case of عمَّ ، ممَّ : عنْ + مَا ، منْ +مَا

(You may even find other kinds, but these are what I can think of for now).

(phoneme: two letters who share all the characteristics except for one, and thus have different sounds. In some situations when the different characteristic is abolished, they have a similar sound. Example the m and the b, who only differ in that one is nazal (m) and the other is explosive (b). When one has cold and their nose is blocked, they pronounce the m as b. In case of assimilation in Arabic, one of the letter assimilates the other and changes its sound to its own, with a shadda)

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Re: Help with Quranic Word!
« Reply #23 on: Today at 12:17:10 PM » Quote Modify

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Sis thanks for detailed answer. I think we are heading in the correct direction. I am in the prcocess of a move. In another 45 minutes I shall be embarking on a 1000 mile drive. We will continue this very enlightening and learning discusssion, little later, once I seatle down. I really appreciate you patients and cool temper in putting up with an illiterate like me.

Badar
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