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The Natural Republic

 
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Shoaib Ali



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 36
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: The Natural Republic Reply with quote

Dear Forum members
Salaman alaikum

I was reading this book The Natural Republic and was contemplating wether he is right or wrong?
The author gives little details regrding ramadan that we should use Luni-Solar calendar to begin our fast which should always be in December since the night of Decree falls in that month.
The author is quoting verses from quran to subsatiate his claim.
Can someone shed more light on this?
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Shoaib Ali
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UmeAimon



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam brother,

Who is the auther of this book?

thanks

UmeAimon
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Arnold Yasin Mol
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peace,

The author Layth sometimes has very interesting theories, but he still has a mythological mindset which can be seen with many of his articles. On Freeminds there have been dozens of debates on the Islamic calander and if it differs from the Qur'anic one.

Till now, I haven't seen any convincing conclusions except from Dr. Ayman who links the calander to natural phenomena instead of to man-named months. Iin this post the different ideas are spelled out:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg177608#msg177608

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg178308#msg178308
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear brother Shoaib,

Which verse in the Qur'an mentions December? None! Hot or cold months are just deviant apologies by some.

2:183 (Creating an ideal society requires discipline and self-restraint among the individuals.) O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Abstinence (from sex and free indulgence in food and drink during the daytime) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you so that you get empowered against evil.

[I have translated Saum as ‘Abstinence’ instead of the common ‘fasting’ since it involves more than fasting, such as abstaining from intimate husband-wife relationship. Moreover, Saum literally means self-restraint, and not fasting, therefore, it includes desisting from common vices such as impatience, anger, unfair criticism, envy etc. Taqwa = Journeying in security = Being careful and observant = Getting empowered against evil = To avoid overstepping the laws = Exercising caution = Strengthening one’s ‘self’ = Preserving the ‘self’ against deterioration = Good conduct. Muttaqeen = Those endowed with Taqwa]

2:184 Just for a fixed number of days. But if any of you is sick or he is on a journey, he may make up the same number of days later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is a way of redemption: the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will bring additional reward. However, going through the training program of Abstinence is better for you, if you only knew.

2:185 The month of Ramadhan has been chosen for this collective training since this is the month in which the Qur’an was revealed, a guidance for mankind, clearly explaining the ‘why’ of every Rule. And it is the Criterion of right and wrong. Whoever witnesses this month should participate in the program of Abstinence. But if any of you is sick or on a journey, let him practice Abstinence for the same number of days later. God desires for you ease, and He does not desire hardship for you. The postponement is to enable you to complete the period. The objective of this training is to establish the supremacy of God (on earth) for, He has shown you a well-lighted road, and for you to show gratitude.

[The entire Qur’an was revealed upon the Prophet’s heart (‘down-loaded’) in Ramadhan of 610 CE in the order as we see today. Thereafter, it was conveyed to people in stages. The concepts therein are not defunct theories and empty hypotheses. It has a Permanent Universal Code of Values and laws. The yearly training of Abstinence in this month connects the message with intensive reflection and study. Note: The Qur’an does not forbid menstruating women from praying or participating in the program of Abstinence. However, a menstruating woman may be considered unwell. The only thing forbidden by the Qur’an during menstruation is intimate husband-wife relationship. In addition, a pregnant woman may be exempted from fasting to avoid dehydration of the fetus who has not even witnessed Ramadhan. Shukr does not mean just verbal thanks. It involves showing gratitude in practice by sharing the God-given bounties with others. It also denotes fulfillment of all noble effort. 2:87-97, 2:185 2:222, 2:233, 7:189, 9:32-33, 14:1, 16:2, 17:85-86, 26:193, 31:14, 42:52, 44:1-4, 46:15, 53:13, 70:4, 81:17-19, 97:1]

2:186 (This training program has nothing to do with asceticism. The mystics think that self-denial will bring them close to God.) So, when My servants ask you about Me, surely, I am Near. I respond to the prayer of the suppliant when he calls unto Me. Let them also listen to My call, and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright.
[God’s response = A sincere caller will be shown the right direction = And Al-Qur’an has answers to all their questions. 3:193-195, 7:56, 8:24, 32:15-16, 40:60, 42:25-26]

2:187 (Abstinence is only for the daytime.) It has been made lawful for you to go to your wives on the night of the Abstinence. They are your garments and you are their garments - close to each other, source of mutual comfort, complementing each other, trustworthy and keepers of privacy, reason for décor, and redressers of faults. God knows that you would have deprived yourselves, feeling guilty, and so He turns to you and pardons you. So, now you may have intimate relations with them and, besides, seek all good that God has ordained for you. You may freely eat and drink until you can discern the white streak of light against the black streak of night at daybreak. Then complete the Abstinence with disciplined eating and drinking until sunset. Do not have intimate relations with them while on special assignments in the Centers of the Divine System. These are the bounds set by God - so come not near violating them. Thus God explains His commands to mankind clearly, so that they understand and remain observant.

[I’tikaaf = Special task = To be deputed = Extra duty = Unique assignment. ‘Aakifoon = Those on I’tikaaf. Unfortunately, under the Ajami (alien) influences, the concept given to I’tikaaf has reduced this Sublime Ordinance to ten days of ascetic and ritualistic isolation in a mosque in the third part of Ramadhan. Obviously, this invented practice violates the Qur’anic injunctions against monasticism and human rights. (57:27). Libaas = Garment = Raiment embraces all the meanings rendered]

2:188 (When you abstain from the permissible during the annual training period, you empower yourselves to easily refrain from the forbidden.) So, knowingly, do not devour the wealth and property of one another in a wrongful manner, nor bribe the officials or the judges to deprive others of their rightful belongings. This kind of behavior drags down your own humanity and harms the collective welfare of the society. [Ithm carries all the meanings given in the last sentence]

2:189 (Self-control is a life-long commitment extending beyond the month of Ramadhan.) They ask you (O Messenger) about the phases of the Moon. Say, “They are calendars to help mankind determine certain seasons such as Hajj.” But know that righteousness can never be achieved by entering the System through the back door of ritualism. Only he who lives an upright life attains it. Enter the Divinely ordained Way of Life straightforward as you must enter houses through their gates. Live an upright life being mindful of God so that you may reap a rich harvest.

[2:138, 2:177, 2:208. There is no such thing as a part-time Muslim]
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Shoaib Ali



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can download this book from [url]www.free-minds.org[/url]

I think what the autor is trying to get to is that The night of Decree can not be changed every year as with the Lunar/Islamic calnder.
If the night of Decree when the Quran was downloaded on Prophets heart is in the month of ramadan then that night has to be same throughout the year.
Suppose if it was in december the 21st then it has to be on that day year after year after year.
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't let anyone confuse you brother Shoaib.

It is in the month of Ramadhan.

Surah 97. Al-Qadr – The Majesty

[Author’s Note] This is the 97th Surah of the Qur’an. It has 5 verses. The Night of Majesty is when the entire Qur’an was revealed through Gabriel on the exalted Messenger’s heart in the month of Ramadhan in the year 610 CE. Its order and arrangement was exactly as we see today. Thereafter, it was revealed to mankind in stages over a period of 23 years. Contrary to popular belief, Iqra was not the first word revealed to the exalted Prophet. The Qur’an came as the Ultimate Criterion between the Right and the Wrong and ushered in a Splendor that has been spreading on earth during the last 14 centuries. 2:87-97, 2:185, 9:32-33, 14:1, 16:2, 17:85-86, 26:193, 42:52, 44:1-4, 70:4, 78:38, 81:17-19]

With the Glorious Name of God the Instant and Sustaining Source of all Mercy and Kindness

97:1 Indeed, We have revealed it in the Night of Majesty. [44:3]

97:2 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of Majesty!

97:3 The Night of Majesty is better than a thousand months. [A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance]

97:4 The Universal forces and the Divine revelation have descended therein, by their Lord’s Leave and shall work in concert with every decree to carry out His plan.

97:5 Peace! It is a message of Peace and Security, and inevitably, a new Morning of Enlightenment shall dawn. [39:69]
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UmeAimon



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam,

ohh ok! If it's all about night of majesty, well it was majestic and mubarik because of the revelation of Quran so we should get over it as it's already gone. I mean whats the point ? reminding ourselves of the night when Quran was revealed...isn'nt it more imortant to remember that thing DUE TO which this night became and called majestic!!
The message by Allah, Al Quran! which is already with us now each and every night!

But I have come questions regarding the months.

It's never been said in Quran that the months to be used are going to be lunar, is it? Only moon's beginning is explained for marking any fixed time for people and for Hajj time as example, and that could be many times within a lunar month like hajj! 2:189

All that is said is to Allah there are 12 months to a year, and the year calculated as ever is the time the earth completes it's revolving arround the sun, moon does not have anything to do with it.

When the treaty was signed between the non muslims and muslims not to fight in four sacred months, if the people of that time, especially christians, had been calculating the time according to solar calender, why would the prophet SW change it to lunar when no such order was given?

When it is said in quran a mother carries and weans a child for thirty months, which months are we talking about ? 46:15

When we say Quran was delivered at once in 610 CE/AD and then over the period of 23 years to others, which 23 years are we talking about, lunar or solar?

Where ever moon is mentioned along with it comes sun and for keeping track of time like of day and night also. Why then we must use lunar months when lunar cycle is not even a month and lunar 12 months don't close to year?

Why can't we use names of 12 Islamic months according to lunar years months... after all they are just the names!!!


jazakallah

UmeAimon
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UmeAimon



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam,

... too many mistakes in a post Confused

I meant to say that when people were asking about the moon it was then explained it is for fixing time period for any event and for Hajj. It is obvious from here that people at that time were using sun related months and years.
So that time setting from the moon occuring could be set within a solar month too, couldn't it?

And why can't we use solar months with Islamic names instead of lunar months after all they are just names of months.

I am going on a break now Cool
thank you

UmeAimon
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UmeAimon



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam,

While I was still waiting someone may come up with answers another thing came to mind about Saum, dear Dr. Shabbir. This question probably came up many times, in some europion countries where a day becomes as long as 19 hours or where there is no proper day or night for months, what is the guidance for saum for people there?
Thank you,

Umeaimon
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Respected Sister,

1. You know that Calendars should not be considered as Christian or Muslim like some people do. Calling them Solar and Lunar should be fine.

Allah describes the Sun and the Moon both, in general, as acceptable sources for calculating time.

55:5 The sun and the moon run by a mathematical design. [Such are the changeless Divine laws]

2. SAUM: The Qur'an stresses upon us the use of our sense. About SAUM at the e.g. North Pole: Let the inhabitants there follow the timings according to their usual breakfast and dinner times. Our intentions count the foremost.

May Allah bless you!
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UmeAimon



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam,

Thank you for your kind reply Dr. Shabbir. But does the second answer mean they can start their "fast" after their usual breakfast time in the morning and end at night whenever they have supper or dinner?
It's true Quran does not mention that!

It seems unfair, as the summer fasting hours get to be 17 hours long here. They don't do their breakfasts and dinners at those times. Or they don't have to suffer so long too as they can start their saum at their usual timings of breakfast and dinner?

Am I or rather are we understanding the "saum" as staying hungry and thirsty, correctly? Just an honest query!

jazakAllah

umeaimon
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Shoaib Ali



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam All,

I was discussing this issue with my friends and the question was raised that if i am born on August the 30th when the Earth the Moon and the Sun were in line with each other then this birth date should be at the same time and date year after year after year.
And if we follow the Lunar calendar alone then obviously we will not have the birth date on same time or date.
And we can not schedule to do our chores and businesses if we just follow the lunar calendar alone.
So the month of Ramadan and the date when the Quran was revealed to Prophet mohammed (SA) has to be on same time year after year after year. It is not suppose to change 10 or 11 days each year.
The Quran says that it was revealed in the month of Ramadan. We should name one of the Solar month as Ramadan.
Just a thoght.....
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Shoaib Ali
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

44:3 We have revealed it on a Blessed Night. We have always been warning.

[The entire Qur’an was revealed (down-loaded on the Prophet's heart) in a Blessed Night in the month of Ramadhan, 610 CE, and then conveyed to mankind in stages over a period of 23 years. 2:185, 97:1]

Surah 97. Al-Qadr – The Majesty

[Author’s Note] This is the 97th Surah of the Qur’an. It has 5 verses. The Night of Majesty is when the entire Qur’an was revealed through Gabriel on the exalted Messenger’s heart in the month of Ramadhan in the year 610 CE. Its order and arrangement was exactly as we see today. Thereafter, it was revealed to mankind in stages over a period of 23 years. Contrary to popular belief, Iqra was not the first word revealed to the exalted Prophet. The Qur’an came as the Ultimate Criterion between the Right and the Wrong and ushered in a Splendor that has been spreading on earth during the last 14 centuries. 2:87-97, 2:185, 9:32-33, 14:1, 16:2, 17:85-86, 26:193, 42:52, 44:1-4, 70:4, 78:38, 81:17-19]

With the Glorious Name of God the Instant and Sustaining Source of all Mercy and Kindness

97:1 Indeed, We have revealed it in the Night of Majesty. [44:3]

97:2 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of Majesty!

97:3 The Night of Majesty is better than a thousand months. [A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance]
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