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Thomas Jefferson did own a copy of the Qur'an

 
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Thomas Jefferson did own a copy of the Qur'an Reply with quote

The founding fathers of America were high above religious bias. In fact, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton and Benjamin Franklin studied the Qur'an in the broken English translations available at that time.

Robertur Tetenensis: 1143 C.E.
George Sale: 1734 C.E.

Many Muslim and Christian scholars have maintained that those great men benefited from the Qur'an while formulating the constitution.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070103/ap_on_go_co/ellison_quran

Subhan-Allah!
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shahalam66



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a thinker, Thomas Jefferson was probably the greatest of all US presidents. He gave more attention to the subject of religion than did any of other presidents.

Jefferson abhorred religious intolerance, he wrote the following:

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 10 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.... It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. Subject opinion to coercion, and whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men, governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? Difference of opinion is advantageous to religion. The several sects perform the office of censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

" on the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."

When the Virginia bill for establishing religious freedom, that he authored... was finally passed, ... a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Muslim, the Hindu and infidel of every denomination.

He thought that the church and the priests could not be trusted with the people's sacred rights of freedom, and said: "In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty, he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

Throughout his presidency Jefferson resented the clerical abuse showered upon him because of his controversial opinion on priesthood. But he said, "I am not afraid of the priests. They have tried upon me all their batteries, of pious whinning, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering without being able to give me even one moment of pain."

The founding fathers of America were certainly high above religious bias. But could there be a comparable figure like Thomas Jefferson in other parts of the world ?
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:30 am    Post subject: Khalkid Azam, CA - email Reply with quote

Khalkid Azam, CA - email

Congressman to be sworn in using Quran
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070104/ap_on_go_co/ellison_quran&printer=1
By FREDERIC J. FROMMER, Associated Press Writer 11 minutes ago
The first Muslim elected to Congress says he will take his oath of office using a Quran once owned by Thomas Jefferson to make the point that "religious differences are nothing to be afraid of."
Rep.-elect Keith Ellison, D-Minn., decided to use the centuries-old Quran during his ceremonial swearing-in on Thursday after he learned that it is kept at the Library of Congress. Jefferson, the nation's third president and a collector of books in all topics and languages, sold the book to Congress in 1815 as part of a collection.
"It demonstrates that from the very beginning of our country, we had people who were visionary, who were religiously tolerant, who believed that knowledge and wisdom could be gleaned from any number of sources, including the Quran," Ellison said in a telephone interview Wednesday.
"A visionary like Thomas Jefferson was not afraid of a different belief system," Ellison said. "This just shows that religious tolerance is the bedrock of our country, and religious differences are nothing to be afraid of."
Some critics have argued that only a Bible should be used for the swearing-in. Last month, Rep. Virgil Goode (news, bio, voting record), R-Va., warned that unless immigration is tightened, "many more Muslims" will be elected and follow Ellison's lead. Ellison was born in Detroit and converted to Islam in college.
Ellison said an anonymous person wrote to tell him about the Quran, and he arranged with the Library of Congress to use it. The chief of the Library of Congress' rare book and special collections division, Mark Dimunation, will walk the Quran across the street to the Capitol and bring it back after the ceremony.
Ellison's decision to use Jefferson's Quran was first reported by The Washington Post on Wednesday.
Jefferson was born in Albemarle County, in what is now Goode's congressional district in central Virginia. Goode's office did not return phone and e-mail messages left Wednesday.
An English translation of the Arabic, Jefferson's Quran was published in 1764 in London, a later printing of one originally published in 1734.
"This is considered the text that shaped Europe's understanding of the Quran," Dimunation said.
It was acquired in 1815 as part of a more than 6,400-volume collection that Jefferson sold for $24,000 to replace the congressional library that had been burned by British troops the year before, in the War of 1812.
"It was a real bargain," Dimunation said.
The Quran survived an 1851 fire in the Capitol. Dimunation described it as a two-volume work, bound in leather with marble boards.
"As a rare book librarian," he said, "there is something special about the idea that Thomas Jefferson's books are being walked across the street to the Capitol building, to bring in yet another session of governmental structure that he helped create."
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shahzad Ahmed's email from Florida

Thank you all for the info!

The following may contain the version that Jefferson read.

http://bahai-library.com/downloads/old_site_1997-2003/all_files_old_site/quran/T
he_Qur%E2%80%99%C3%A1n.html#VI.%20THE%20KORAN%20%28TRANSLATED%20BY%20GEORGE%20SA
LE%29%20-%20Full%20British%20Version
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Me n my Qur'an



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson did own a copy of the Qur'an Reply with quote

Respected Brother/Sister! Please always mention your name with your post. Many Thanks
Ahmed Mateen (Our Beacon Committee)
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Dr. Shabbir wrote:
The founding fathers of America were high above religious bias. In fact, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton and Benjamin Franklin studied the Qur'an in the broken English translations available at that time...

Many Muslim and Christian scholars have maintained that those great men benefited from the Qur'an while formulating the constitution.



Don't let the mere fact that Thomas Jefferson and other American "founding fathers" were "high above religious bias", make you over look the that Jefferson (and most American "founding fathers") were active participants in the most savage form of slavery the world has ever seen. A large number of these African slaves, who the American "founding fathers" designated as 3/5 of a human being, submitted to the Will of Allah (i.e. were "Muslims"). In fact, Jefferson is believed to have fathered children with a Black woman whom he owned. Thomas Jefferson (and many of America's "founding fathers") were rapists, murderers, and oppressors. I don't see where his ownership of a Qur'an makes him an upstanding person.


2:177 (One obvious result of sectarianism is their pre-occupation with rituals. This is because each sect leaves the Book aside and makes its own set of dogmas they call religion). No wonder, they forget that) Righteousness and exponential development of personality is not in that you turn your faces to the East and the West. But righteous is he who has conviction in Allah and the Last Day and the Angels and the Book and the Prophets. And he gives his wealth that he loves in reverence of Him, to:

- Family and relatives
- Orphans
- Widows
- Those left helpless in the society
- Those whose hard-earned income fails to meet their basic needs
- Those whose running businesses have stalled
- The ones who have lost their jobs
- Whose life has stalled for any reason
- The disabled
- The needy wayfarer, son of the street, the homeless, the one who travels to you for assistance
- Those who ask for help, and
- Those whose necks are burdened with any kind of bondage, oppression, crushing debts and extreme hardship of labor.


Please stop applauding this unrighteous man!
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DrSyedMustafaAli
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Jefferson The White Supremacist (Racist) Reply with quote

Salaamun aleikum.

Well said.

Jefferson was a White Supremacist (Racist). His "use" of The Qur'an - assuming he did, in fact, make "use" of it - does not redeem him from his Racism (White Supremacy).

The "founding fathers" are the fathers of White Supremacists (Racists).

The "founding father" of the Muslims is Ibraheem (pbuh).

Fi amaan illah
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Anya



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:54 am    Post subject: The benefit of the doubt Reply with quote

I take the point that is being made that TJ was not a perfect human being and was in violation of many a Quranic teaching. However, it is my understanding from the previous posts, that the contention is the TJ may have gleaned some wisdom from the Quran that was then translated (even subliminally) into the Constitution. Therefore, perhaps one should look at the other side of the coin and imagine what the Constitution would have looked like if TJ hadn't read the Quran at all. Also, we must remember, at the time, slavery (to tackle just one of the issues raised) was widely acceptable in the Western (and for that matter - large parts of the Eastern) world. To fight against such an accepted practice necessitated, among others, a Civil War. Human trafficing today is slavery too - but fortunately, the world has changed sufficiently to outlaw it. It has taken centuries, but measures are being put into place to eradicate this unjust practice. Perhaps the teachings of the Quran are filtering through - one piece at a time. Those of us who were fortunate to have been exposed to its teachings (irrespective of the format that such teachings took), should count ourselves fortunate. TJ did not implement all the teachings of the Quran, but give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that at least one spark touched him, and that made him a better person.
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Brian aka Reverted1



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: The benefit of the doubt Reply with quote

Anya wrote:
Also, we must remember, at the time, slavery (to tackle just one of the issues raised) was widely acceptable in the Western (and for that matter - large parts of the Eastern) world...

...TJ did not implement all the teachings of the Quran, but give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that at least one spark touched him, and that made him a better person.


As a descendant of the African people who were: regarded as 3/5 of a human being - bought, sold, and traded like chattel, - beaten, raped, and killed with no protection under the law, and as a descendent of the Native America People who were systematically annihilated through genocide and who are referred to as "savages" in the US Constitution, which is signed by TJ and his equally demonic cohorts, I certainly will not give TJ the benefit of the doubt. "Everyone does it" is not an excuse. Evil is evil. Based on his actions, I'm inclined to believe that TJ got very little from the Qur'an. It appears he was more influenced by hadith. I am flabbergasted you can overlook murder, rape, slavery, and genocide and still claim "one spark" of the Qur'an touched him. I'd hate to see what he'd have looked like without that "one spark". Respect the holocaust of Black and Native Americans as most of the world respects the holocaust of the Jews. I am as offended by your remarks as a Jew would rightfully be by you pointing out Hitler's positives and saying he wasn't all bad!

TJ and his sahaba created a white supremist democracy. It was designed by and only for the betterment of white people. All the riches, power, and world influence the US currently has is the direct result of its oppression, suppression, and depression of non-white people across the globe. Without free slave labor and the land stolen from and the annihilation of the Native Americans, the US would not exist as we now know it. Blacks were only given full rights as citizens 43 years ago and Native Americans are reparated for the crimes against their humanity with gambling casinos. Both groups are still among the poorest and least educated in the US. Additionally, the US still has colonies, which it now refers to as territories (for example: Puerto Rico, Guam, US Virgin Islands, Saipan, etc.). The inhabitants of these "territories" are all subjects of the US Government but do not have full rights as citizens, and these lands are inhabitated predominately by non-white people. Poverty is rampant amongst the people in these territories. However, because of their white sand beaches and luxury hotels they are vacation playgrounds for white America.

There are many positive aspects of the US that we can strive to achieve for the future ummah governed by the Qur'an alone, but first realize that the US and its founding fathers are not to be idolized. The US neither in the past nor in the present has established The Divine System. Overall, we should strive for something much better.

Peace
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Anya



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:04 am    Post subject: Response Reply with quote

Peace Brother. My previous post was in response to the topic: Thomas Jefferson did own a copy of the Qur'an. It was not meant to be a justification of the grave atrocities that were and continue to be perpetuated by governments the world over. This world has many problems, and the solution to those problems is to establish the Divine System - of that there is no doubt. The Quran, were it to be followed in its prestine form, has an elegance and a unflawed structure that could allow humanity to reach its potential. Unfortunately, except for that short period during the time when the Prophet established the Divine System (thereby showing us in practice that it is possible to implement such a system), no country has established such a system. At best, we have countries that have implemented portions of the Divine System (often without really comprehending that those elements form part of the Divine System).
Coming back to the topic - the initial posts on this topic were a discourse regarding whether TJ owed a copy of the Quran (and if so, by implication, was he influenced by it). The later posts pointed out that the founding fathers of the USA were still steeped in the beliefs and laws (unjust laws at that) and advocated the upholding thereof. I then argued that if TJ had a copy of the Quran, and even in a minute, and subliminal way, it influenced him, it could only be for the better. The laws may have been harsher and may have taken a longer time to disassemble but for that little spark. Hence - give him the benefit of the doubt.
In today's world, in my opinion, no governenment follows the Divine System. Certain countries have implemented, as I have stated above, elements thereof - such as welfare for the unemployed, or free health services, or the right to a fair trial, etc. Of note also is that those deeply abhorrant human rights violations (torture, human trafficing (akin to slavery), detention without trial, etc) are at least condemned by the vast majority of humanity (notwithstanding those hypocrites who condemn these practices verbally, but in an attempt to "protect their interests", perpetuate it - US, case in point).
Racism, however it manifests itself, whether in an apartheid state (such as the then South African system, or currently in Palestine), or otherwise, remains unjust and indefensible. However, and this is not a justification for racism to exist, it has always existed whether between tribes, or countries, or races or religions. Hence the Quranic teaching that no one is superior to another. In the vast expanse of human history, it has taken wars, killings of persons like Martin Luther King, incarceration of Nelson Mandela to show people that racism in untenable and intolerable - and still it exists. The Quran has been standing for 1400 years, proclaiming that racism is against the Divine System. Earlier prophets have preached the same message.
My post was not to defend TJ, or any other person who acts contrary to the teachings of the Quran, but merely to hightlight the fact that despite living in an era where much of that today which is considered taboo, was considered to be acceptable, there may have been a small spark that may have influenced him. It was not enough to change him totally, and was not enough to change an entire prevailing system, but it may have been enough to make a person pause. And sometimes, a pause is all that may be required to change direction.
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