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History on the Ummah structure 1st century AH
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abshoeb



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Respected Brother Adjwi Salam



Brother the truth is that history is a powerful double-edged sword. If a nation has its true past history, then it is better able to be successful in the present and prospective in the future. But if all it has is a mutilated version of its history, then that nation will become so entangled in past mistakes and misunderstandings that freeing itself from that obscure darkness will be extremely difficult. This is what has happened to us. Amongst the reasons for our decline, our corrupted history is an important element.

In that so called history those pages are such vile accounts that one feel’s great embarrassment in associating them with that blessed era, and one’s face lowers to the ground in shame.

But Alhamdulillah With us is the book of Allah, upon which we all have iman (conviction). Based on fact and understanding, we believe that it is a constitution that covers life’s every corner and is sufficient to establish nourishment in an all-encompassing manner for all time to come. If we truly follow it, we can become the most successful of nations. But obviously, the Quran can only provide this benefit and nourishment if we understand it correctly. The biggest obstacle in our understanding of the Quran, however, is our mutilated and corrupted history. And how this corrupted history can become such a massive barrier to the proper understanding of the Quran.

For example In the system the Quran illustrates for us, it characterizes its citizens’ (mu’mineen) as, “they spend and make available to others whatever Allah grants them of His bounty. (2:3)” The Quran also clarifies to what extent their personal wealth should be made open to others by stating, “Oh Prophet, they ask you what they should give.” The mu’mineen asked how much personal wealth should be given to the other members of Islam, to foster universal growth and nourishment. The answer was, “Tell them, whatever is left over after your necessities are taken care of. (2:219)” In other words, after you deal with your own expenses, give everything that remains. Clearly, these verses order the citizens of the Islamic system to keep only that much of their hard work’s pay as they needed. The rest would go to the Quranic system (Islamic government), which would then spend the collected wealth to equally spread nourishment to all citizens of Islam.

There is no difficulty in understanding the concepts of the above verses, nor is there any doubt or ambiguity in them. But if you take these concepts and verses and present them to someone, who believes this history their usual response is that so-and-so sahaba (companion of the Prophet) used to have over a hundred-thousand dinars and dirhams, another had piles of silver and gold, and another had caravan upon caravan filled with goods of trade. So if no one was allowed to keep more wealth than his personal needs required, then why did these blessed souls amass so much wealth? So how can one learn through such corrupted history

Ali Bin Ali Alharbi (Al Madina)
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adjwi



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 12
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam Aleikum,

Arnold, thanks for the link. Here is a quote from Dr. Mansoor Alam's articles:

Quote:
The period following this system which was based purely on the Quran, - there was no other written book at the time – was replaced by hereditary kingship, otherwise known as Islamic empire. But, because the system instituted by the Prophet (PBUH) still had its momentum and influence, the Islamic empire continued to flourish and grow. It was as if the tree planted by the Prophet (PBUH) and nourished by the Khulafaa Al-Rashidoon continued to give fruits. Although deprived of further Quranic nourishment, the tree continued to use up the prior nourishing sap. This obviously could not continue forever. The tree, having used up all of its previous nourishment, started to decline.


I question if what grew was not in difference to what the prophet had established. What is described as growth, I view as decline. Imperialism, an Islamic empire doesn't make sense for me. A conquering Islam doesn't make sense to me. Did the prophet go out and conquer Madina? For that matter nor does the notion of an Islamic State. From my perspective, this is a borrowed idea that doesn't ''fit'' islam. I guess I must repeat myself but I remain of the opinion thet a ''Sacred Islamic History'' awaits to be addressed and questionned.

adjwi
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adjwi



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 12
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walaikum Salaam Ali, Salaam Aleikum All,

Quote:
So how can one learn through such corrupted history


From my perspective, an acknowledgement of the corrupted history as well as an acknowledgement of errors in history seem necessary. I see the absence of Ali in the reported decisional process that lead to the establishment of Abu-Bakr as khalif as a symbol of error. How could such an important decision be taken in the absence of Ali? This symbolizes in my eyes the innitial collective error of the umma. I am not suggesting or not suggesting that Ali should have been named khalif. That is not the point.

Ali's exclusion makes him in my eyes a leader in the unity of the umma, the rightful leader. Ali personnifies the success on an individual level and this success is not to be seen in a title or position. I may be wrong, Allah knows best, but as such Mohammed was not after title or position either. A successful succession is seen in my eyes at this individual level. In fact I see this consistant throughout the history of prophecy, from Adam to Mohammed, and in the history of humanity from Adam to Ali. The rightful history of humanity is not about holding office, nor holding titles.

The historical error that is repeated by nations is to confine their past to a a specific limit in time or geography. If, as individuals, we are able to expand our personal history beyond those established limits and claim our past to Ibrahim's past, to Adam's past, as our own, then to our creator, Rabbi, hence things become different. The only way I see this as possible is for humanity to recognize the quran as more than the Muslim's religious book, but in fact for humanity to view the quran as their history book.
In the eyes of Allah, it would seem to me for human history to be akin to that of the universe; i.e. as perfect. Any imperfection is solely at the human level, thus the challenge befronting humanity, is to elevate one's vision to that of our creator. Such is my limited understanding at this time.

adjwi
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Drcheema



Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 50
Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adjwi wrote:
salaam aleikum,

Thank-you abshoeb for your efforts. What is clear to me is the sum total of what you presented doesn't make sense. That is not saying that parts could be accurate, but which parts? So how did the story really go? What's the true picture? Coudn't we learn from the mistakes?

adjwi


salaam
It really shocked me. If this detailed post by brother Ali does not make any sense to you then perhaps nothing would. It also amazes me how come the most illogical and nonsense stories of so called muslim historians make sense to you.
It seems to me that you have conciously chosen to believe what suits your purpose or theory and would never agree to the simple and clear truths.
For the character of the companions i dont need any persian criminal to tell me the fake stories fabricated in the darkness of the night under the direct instructions of their persian conspirators.

I have Quran teling me this:

9:100 And the first to lead the way are the emigrants (from Makkah), their hosts who sheltered them (in Madinah), and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him. He has made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. This is the Supreme Triumph.

And certainly without any iota of doubt, Syedna Abu Bakr O Omr O Usman O Ali (R) belong to this group.

And Quran also tells us about an other group which caused lethal damage to Ummah Rasool S.

9:101 Some of the Bedouins who dwell around your town are hypocrites, and some of the people of Al-Madinah also persist in hypocrisy. You know them not, We know them. We will punish them twice (they will be humiliated in the battle and they will see their families and children embracing Belief). Then they will be relegated to a painful doom.

The conspiracies from across the borders had already started and muslims were not aware at that time, not even Rasool. During the life time of MOhammad S, the superpowers of the area had become aware of this new revolution in the desert and knew very well the impact of this in the future.
Especially after the battle of Qadsiyah when Persia fell to Saad bin Waqaas R, those lying on the outside of the town and Rasool had no knowledge of them yet" came into action and launched attacks under cover which resulted in the assasinations of several leading sahabah.

After this clear evidence from Quran do i need any ibnay ishq or tabri, ofcourse NOT.
I"m sure, this is not going to make any sense to you. So enjoy stories of Tabri.

Regards
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Taseer Cheema,MD
New York
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adjwi



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 12
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam Dreechma,

I'm sorry but I have been misunderstood. I wrote that what you describe as the
Quote:
...the most illogical and nonsense stories of so called muslim historians ...
didn't make sense to me. So where's the disagreement?

Hense this is silly wouldn't you say:
Quote:
It seems to me that you have conciously chosen to believe what suits your purpose or theory and would never agree to the simple and clear truths.


Would you please explain yourself, I'm not sure I am understanding this part.
Quote:
Especially after the battle of Qadsiyah when Persia fell to Saad bin Waqaas R, those lying on the outside of the town and Rasool had no knowledge of them yet" came into action and launched attacks under cover which resulted in the assasinations of several leading sahabah.
Is that during the prophet's lifetime?

The stories of Tabri mean nothing to me. After the prophet's death things appear to enter a maze. What's true, what's not true isn't clear. I'm not sure of references other than the quran. However the history of what happened after isn't there and that's a problem. Would you be kind and tell me is my idea wrong or is such that there is no force in the deen of Allah?

Could you consider this: How was the perfect model established by Mohammed supposed to exist after his death? Through consolidation or expansion? From what I gather history tells of an expansionary route; is that right? Through battles? Is that right? Was that right? Can the question be asked? I don't believe in error-less sahabas, would you tell me I should ?

adjwi
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Drcheema



Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 50
Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello dear
You reacted as i had predicted. There was nothing ambiguous in my posting.
Quran is not a book of history and u will not find events taking place year wise as you see in other man written books such as bible and etc.
Quran briefly touches the important events and keeps the focus on the basic message and does not go into the time and space details.
The events which are mentioned are also for a reason and not there just for the sake of history. No word of Quran is a waste but to support the understanding of the Message.
Let me hold your hand and walk you through Quran briefly and see for yourself if these kind of poeple whose character is confirmed by Quran could indulge in greed as its falsely reported in history.

48:29 Muhammad is Allah’s Messenger. And those who are with him are stern towards the rejecters, but full of compassion towards one another. You see them bowing, adoring, as they seek Allah’s Bounty and Acceptance. Their signs (of belief) are on their faces, the effects of adoration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel. Like a seed that brings forth its shoot, and then strengthens it, so that it grows thick, and then stands firm on its own stem, delighting those who have sown it. Consequently, it fills the rejecters with rage at them. But unto those who may yet attain belief and do works that help others, Allah promises forgiveness and Immense Reward.



[‘Athar-is-sujood’ is frequently mistranslated as the physical mark on the forehead resulting from regular prostration. But ‘Wajh’ means face and not forehead. In addition, the verses of the Bible that the Qur'an is referring to, make no mention of any physical marks on the foreheads or faces. ‘Sujud’ = Adoration = Prostrations = Complete submission. ‘Signs on their faces’ = Reflection of Faith in the believer’s mannerism. ‘Face’ = Countenance = One’s whole being. Torah and Gospel: Numbers xvi 22 - Mark iv 27-28 - Matthew xiii 3-9]


8:74 Those who believed and emigrated, and strove in the Cause of Allah, and those who hosted them and supported them, are True believers. For them is protection of forgiveness and honorable provision.



8:75 And those who followed them in belief, and left their homes, and strove along with you, they are of you. Remember that blood relatives have certain special rights and obligations over each other according to Allah's Ordinance. They should be the first ones to help each other. Verily, Allah is Knower of all things.

59:8 And it is for the poor refugees who have been expelled from their homelands and their property. And they seek Allah’s Bounty and Approval, and support Allah and His Messenger. It is they, they who are true to their faith.



59:9 Also those who resided in the city (Madinah) before them and attained faith. They love those who immigrated to them, and find no hesitation in their hearts in helping them. But rather give them preference over themselves, even though poverty be their own lot. And whoever is saved from greediness of the heart, such are the ones who truly prosper.


After this, if you still want to maintain that sahabah were vulnerable to commit the kind of crimes as mentione din the false history then i have nothing to do with you. Mistakes they could make in minor matters of life but not of the magnitude which could have bearing on the future of Islam.
You after spending few years in college consider yoruself a smart man who is less vulnerable to make mistakes and desire to be very "clean". What makes you think that training provided to you by some tom dick and harry is superior than the coaching of a Rasool. Ashabah had the priveledge to be trained more or less under the direct guidelines of the Rasool S and hence were better than you and me trillion times..
NOw figure yourself out whats right and whats wrong.
Regards
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Taseer Cheema,MD
New York
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Our Beacon Committee



Joined: 24 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear <Adjwi>

You are well advised to read Forum Policy carefully. This is no place to preach nonsense stories invented by criminal Imams. We strongly refute anything belittle our Exalted Prophet and his companions. Please be mindful of that.


Ahmed Mateen
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