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Re: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
By:Tahir Canada
Date: Friday, 26 January 2018, 6:26 am
In Response To: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus (Dawood, USA)

Dawood:
"1. It is clear from above that Mary was a devotee of the Temple as per the custom of the time and God accepted her into the Temple as His devotee. She grew to be an honorable, morally upright, and beautiful young lady.

2. Although, it is not mentioned clearly anywhere in Quran, the Quranic narrative in 3:36 posits that males used to be dedicated to Temple. Thus, Mary found herself among the male devotees, both young and old. When Mary grew up among them as a beautiful young lady, this must have caused a great deal of anxiety among the male devotees, particularly the young ones, thus, at least some if not many must have attempted to violate her. Verses referring to “she guarded her chastity…” are a direct reference to such attempts."

Tahir:
It is all supposition:
Quran does not say males used to be dedicated to temple.
Quran does not say male devotees tried to violate her.

Dawood:
3. This situation must have alarmed the leadership of the Temple. Thus, the temple leadership decided to remove her from the temple and put her under someone’s care outside the temple. They disputed and argued among themselves (each one wanting to take charge of her for their own reasons) and followed a certain method to decide upon this as per [3:44], eventually, putting her under the care of prophet Zachariya who integrated her into his own family as per [3:37] and [19:16]."

Tahir:
It is like adding to the words of Allah. How do you know that she was removed from temple?

Dawood:
"4. It appears from Quran, Prophet Zachariya provided her with lodging on the eastern side of his residence [19:16], and either already had a “prayer chamber” at his house for prayers or he specifically constructed one, perhaps adjacent to her private room. Whenever, Zachariya entered her prayer chamber, he found “provisions” with her. On enquiry, she replied: “It is from Allah. Indeed, Allah provides for whom He wills without account." This cannot be referred to devotees providing her for she is no more in the Temple, and Zachariya would have known if devotees are coming to see her, thus, no point of him to enquire about these. In fact, through this encounter Mary imparted a great lesson to Prophet Zachariya as narrated in [3:38-41]."

Tahir:
When you say it appears it shows that you are approaching Quran with pre-conceived concepts.

Dawood:
[3:42-43]: And when the ANGELS said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds. O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow [in prayer]."

5. It is during this time (outside the temple and under Zachariya’s care) when Angels (plural) informed Mary of her extraordinary status among the women of the worlds. She is not only chosen above all of them, she is also purified by God. No other person in Quran is described as chosen as well as purified as Mary. THERE MUST BE SPECIAL, VERY SPECIAL PURPOSE FOR WHICH MARY WAS CHOSEN AND PURIFIED, see [3:45] below.

Tahir:
Another supposition that there must be a special purpose.......

Dawood:
She did not ask to be removed from the Temple. She is not part of the Temple since Zachariya took charge of her. How has she rebelled against the rules and regulations of the Temple? It is therefore clear she did not rebel against any system, Temple or otherwise.

Tahir:
Another supposition.

Dawood:
[19:16]: And mention, in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.

Tahir:
No mention of Zakaria taking her out of temple to his private residence. Rather it is Maryam who withdrew from her family.

Dawood:
13. We now return to the central question posed above about the additional word “baghiyyan” in 19:20. Please note the phrase “no man has touched me = walam yamsasnī basharun” preceding “baghiyyan”.

Tahir:
Did she say that no man will touch her ever in her life? Or no man has touched her at that point.

Dawood:
[24:33] … And do not compel your young girls to prostitution (l-bighāi), if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. …

Dr. Sahib has rendered it as “rebellion against morality” which I think is fine, though less specific because morality is more generic and could be interpreted in different ways. To me, Quran is specific rather very specific to convey what it wants to convey.

Tahir:
Are you suggesting that companions used to compel young girls to prostitution? Please get rid of this hadithi non-sense.

Dawood:
14. These meanings of the word “baghiyyan = unchaste behavior, or loose character” in 19:20, are further supported when we answer the question, why Mary used it in 19:20 and not in 3:47? The reason is simple. In 3:47, angels are relaying to her “good news” and she was wondering how it is possible, but in 19:20, a physical man is in front of her while she is isolated from rest of her family and this man is adamant to give/grant/bestow her a pure boy as per 19:19. Thus, she is fearful and apprehensive of this man’s motives, and preempts him by telling him: “A boy for me is impossible because so far no one has touched me, and I am NOT UNCHASTE, NOT of LOOSE Character neither in the past nor at this time” and you better don’t dare to violate me. This man/spirit/ruh/energy replied:

[19:21]: He said, "Like this – thus, your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "

Tahir:
There is mention of God's decree to bless her with a boy but no mention of any fatherless child. Would have been easier to say she would have a boy without any father

Dawood:
[19:27-28]: Then she came with him to her people, CARRYING HIM. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly an amazing (fariyyan) thing. O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste (baghiyyan)."

18. Please note, she carried her newborn back to her people. Thus, establishing that Jesus was a newborn child in the cradle when she brought him to her people.

19. The word “fariyyan” in 19:27 is indicative of extreme perplexity, stunning, and disbelief. Mary was known to be morally upright and strong woman. Thus, they were in shock to see Mary with this new born, without a father. MAY, I ASK MY READERS, WHY SUCH A DISBELIEF AND SHOCK IF SHE WAS MARRIED AND HAD A CHILD? After all, did they not see people having children after they get married? Thus, it is clear, she was not married when she had baby Jesus.

Tahir:
Fariyyan could mean a nun giving birth to a child whereas a nun was not allowed to get married. And also claim of Issa to be a prophet.

Dawood:
20. If their objection was only to her marriage against Temple’s norms, as some claim, why this disbelief/shock when she returns with a child but not when she gets married right in front of them? Thus, it is obvious she was not married when she had Jesus.

Tahir:
Too much assumptions. How do you know she got married in front of them?

Dawood:
21. On seeing Mary with her newborn, her people with a sense of disbelief accused her of being unchaste. In fact, they did not accuse her directly, rather through linguistic niceties via her mom and dad. i.e. they were not bad in character as you Mary has proven to be. Please note exactly same word “baghiyyan” used in 19:28 as was used in 19:20. Thus, UNMISTAKABLY the word “baghiyyan” refers to unchaste behavior.

Tahir:
Under Rabbanic Law they should have stoned her to death for adultery.

Dawood:
[19:30-33]: [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive. And [made me] dutiful/good to MY MOTHER, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant. And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

Tahir:
Issa did not say his mother was chaste rather announced his nabuwat and invited them to sirat-e-mustaqeem.

Dawood:
23. Note, reference to Jesus’ father is missing everywhere in Quran. 19:32 is clear example of him having no father, else there is no reason as to why Jesus himself skipped good behavior towards his own father, if any.

Tahir:
And confirmation that he was born without a father is also not there.

Dawood:
Group 1: Those who believed in his miraculous birth without any male’s intervention and thus became believers.

Tahir:
They may be called hadith and bible followers instead of believers.

Dawood:
26. Thus, 3:59-60 is yet another clear reference informing us that prophet Jesus is created like Adam, through God’s command of BE, thus, o’ prophet Muhammad you should not doubt it as others have done in 19:34. One can read the Quran from cover to cover, Group 1 is the only group (among the groups mentioned above) supported by the Quran, all other beliefs and attitudes are refuted within the Quran.

Tahir:
The complete process given in Quran is "kun fa yakun". Why stop at "BE" and not think about "It starts happening".

wa salaam
Tahir

Messages In This Thread

Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 January 2018, 8:28 pm
Re: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
Tahir Canada -- Friday, 26 January 2018, 6:26 am
Re: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 29 January 2018, 11:10 pm
Re: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
Tahir Canada -- Thursday, 1 February 2018, 10:02 pm
Re: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
Dawood, USA -- Saturday, 3 February 2018, 2:24 am
Re: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
Tahir Canada -- Saturday, 3 February 2018, 9:26 pm
Re: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
Dawood, USA -- Saturday, 10 February 2018, 12:37 am
Re: contradiction and shame over birth of Jesus
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 26 January 2018, 12:40 pm
Re: contradiction and shame over birth of Jesus
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 29 January 2018, 11:13 pm
Re: contradiction and shame over birth of Jesus
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 1 February 2018, 6:13 pm
Re: contradiction and shame over birth of Jesus
Dawood, USA -- Saturday, 3 February 2018, 2:30 am
Re: contradiction and shame over birth of Jesus
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 3 February 2018, 8:26 am
Re: contradiction and shame over birth of Jesus
Dawood, USA -- Saturday, 10 February 2018, 12:33 am
Re: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
abdalaziz ariff / indiana -- Friday, 26 January 2018, 9:22 pm
Re: Confusions surrounding the birth of Jesus
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 29 January 2018, 11:14 pm