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Re: Virgin Birth
By:jawaid ahmed,uk
Date: Tuesday, 19 December 2017, 3:47 pm
In Response To: Re: Virgin Birth (A Sayed (South Africa))

Sarah still HAD EGGS so she could conceive. Old age is not the same as our geriatric ; in Judaism and that time period 40 was considered 'old'. Stop reading Bible and the 600 hundred year olds! Or read Bible and see how many geriatrics had children without God intervening!

God addresses Jesus as son of Mary.
• When she comes home her people question her about having a baby without a husband.
• Allah gives a similitude that the creation of Jesus is like that of Adam, who did not have a father.
Best Regards,

Can you quote me the verse which says that the Jews accused her of adultery, as she had no apparent husband but brought forth a child?

Jesus created like adam, all MANKIND, naturally.

Read and understand Quran:

Jesus Like Adam
3.59. The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

The ‘creation’ of Jesus is likened to the creation of ‘Adam’ and as the Bible tells us God created him without a mother or father then this adds proof to Jesus that a father was not needed due to the lack of either parent for Adam. Adam is a chapter in itself and once read we may learn that adam means mankind, so the above verse is just saying that Jesus was created like the whole of mankind are, men and women, the result of a man and woman after the reproductive act. If Adam can be understood as coming from dust, that is from something other than natural child birth, then Jesus should not have needed Mary to house him; similar is not dust and womb.

By the time this earth had produced something that turned into an early ‘man’, that is a thinking ‘person’, then this would have been by the male/female natural biological process and not a miraculous God intervention. We have:

3:59 With God, the example of Jesus is that of Adam (other humans) who were initially created from dust and then evolved through different stages of life (22:5, 30:20). He created him (the human) beginning from inorganic matter, then He said to him, “Be! And he is.” [The process of procreation goes on - “IS”. Kun fayakoon = The moment God decrees a thing, it starts happening]

Jesus, Son Of Mary

Another excuse presented as proof Jesus had no earthly father by the semi Christian ‘muslims’ is based on the Quran describing Jesus as son of Mary and the Quran says elsewhere to name adopted children after their fathers, so this is stretched to say Mary is the father of Jesus. Two verses to demonstrate this are:

2:87 We gave the Scripture to Moses, and after him We sent a succession of Messengers. And We gave JESUS SON OF MARY clear evidence of the truth and strengthened him with Ruh-il-Qudus. Yet, is it that whenever a Messenger came to you with messages that you did not desire, you resorted to self-glorification? And some of them you called impostors, and others you killed or tried to subdue. [Attempts to strike a deal with the Messengers to alter the revelations. 10:15, 11:113, 17:74, 68:9. Ruh-il-Qudus = Ruh-ul-Qudus = Ruh-il-Amin = Gabriel 2:87, 2:97, 2:253, 5:110, 16:2, 16:102, 26:193, 42:52]

33:5 Name and call your adopted children after their fathers. That is more just in the Sight of God. If you do not know their fathers then they are your brothers and sisters in Faith and your friends. There is no blame on you for an unintentional mistake. What counts is the intentions of your hearts, for, God is Forgiving, Merciful. [2:220]

Regarding son of Mary, the Quran has a chapter called Mary [Maryam], gives us many details including Mary’s birth, her going away from the temple to have a family etc, so she is the important figure in the life of Jesus, not his father. To address Jesus as son of Mary is to show the importance of Mary in his upbringing and gives her the respect she deserves. We do not accept Moses had no father when Aaron, his brother, addresses him as:
7:150 Moses returned to his people and was upset and grieved. He said, “You have chosen a terrible thing after me. Do you wish your Lord’s requital to smite you soon?” He put down the tablets of the commands among them and questioned his brother, Aaron, very strictly. Aaron explained, "O SON OF MY MOTHER! These people treated me harshly and took my patience as weakness, and almost killed me. Let not my opponents rejoice, and do not count me among the wrongdoers." [20:86. Seizing the beard and head is indicative of interrogating harshly. Aaron had been extra patient with their idolatry to avoid division among them (20:94). Aaron, the Prophet of God, preferred Shirk over Sectarianism. This is how reprehensible sectarianism and division in religion is]

The Quran has the mother of Moses playing a key part in his early life; saving him in a ‘basket’, raising him in the household of Pharaoh, so again this woman is shown full respect in the Quran for the role she played. We have two examples of women associated with their sons, so this does not prove virgin birth.

Son of My Father!

Regarding naming the sons after their fathers. This only applies to adopted sons who are named so that their paternity is not confused with their adopted parents. They are not their children, but they still need to be loved, cared for, raised as they would raise their own children, if not better as they have suffered a great loss. This naming plays no part in proving virgin birth and is a none issue. To further prove this, look at:

6:84 We gave him Isaac the son, and Jacob the grandson, and We guided them. Before Abraham, We guided Noah and from his descendants, We guided David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. We thus reward the benefactors of humanity.
6:85 And Zacharias, John the Baptist, Jesus and Elijah (Elias); all in the ranks of the righteous who fulfilled the needs of mankind.
6:86 And Ishmael, Elisha (Al-Yasa’), Jonah (Yunus), and Lot (Lut). To all of them We gave distinction over people of their times.
6:87 And We gave distinction to some of their ancestors, children and siblings and guided them to the straight path. [This verse also negates the myth of Virgin Birth, as Jesus is included among Prophets whose fathers were blessed. [Aaba = Fathers = Forefathers = Ancestors]
6:88 This is the Guidance of God. He guides His servants according to His laws (4:88). If they had associated others with God, their actions would have been in vain.

Male ancestors, not female and you would expect the father of Jesus to be proved and included in this! Yusuf Ali has this rendering, which proves Jesus had a father, brothers/sisters and childredn:

6:87. (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.

Hermaphrodite

Now we have eliminated the miraculous there is an idea being sold in the religious market which is based on a natural phenomenon so does not need miracles. A female can be born with male sexual organs which are open or hidden inside so cannot be seen, with both the male chromosomes XY and female XX, so Mary was one of these and could self-fertilise or reproduce asexually and give birth to a male.

Science informs us that a female, XX can only give birth to a female without a male contributing his Y bit, as she is XX, based on asexual reproduction in lower life forms. Hence the need for Mary to be a XX/XY female so she can produce a XY male son, Jesus.

Allah Grants Males and Females
Yusuf Ali 42.49. To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills (and plans). He bestows (children) male or female according to His Will (and Plan), 42.50. Or He bestows both males and females, and He leaves barren whom He will: for He is full of Knowledge and Power.

The above verses are used by some to say that Allah makes both males and females in one body rather than the universally and correct understanding that He has endowed mankind to make male and female children. If it is not speaking about procreation but hermaphrodite production, then the “barren" would not be there. It is just saying:
42:49 To God belongs the Dominion of the heavens and the earth. He creates and designs all things according to His laws. He bestows the gift of daughters according to His laws and the gift of sons according to His laws.
42:50 Or He bestows both males and females, and He leaves infertile some according to His laws. He is Knower, Omnipotent.

It Gets Better:
Yusuf Ali 3.35. Behold! a woman of 'Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things." 3.36. When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected."

She saw a female child but God knew it was really a male as well! Yes, this is the interpretation by some to prove the virgin birth. Instead of this nonsense, we can justly interpret this as meaning she wanted to dedicate a male child to the cause of Allah and was a little disappointed a girl was born, but Allah knew that the girl, Mary, would be able to raise Jesus in a wholesome, Godly manner.
3:34 In one lineage. God is the Hearer, Knower of all things and events. [Muhammad belongs to the same progeny of Abraham through Ishmael, and Jesus belonged to it through the family of ‘Imran. Now is related the truth about Jesus and Mary]
3:35 The wife of ‘Imran prayed, “My Lord! I have dedicated the baby in my womb to You entirely (for the service of the temple). So accept from me. You are the Hearer, Knower.”
3:36 When she delivered she said, “My Lord! I have delivered a female.” God knew best what she delivered; the male is not the same as the female. “I have named her Mary. I request Your protection for her and for her descendants from the rejected Satan.” [The male she had prayed for could have not been like the outstanding daughter she was granted. This female would have a role that no male could have, in breaking the shackles of asceticism. As a ‘holy’ custom, a nun would either remain single, or rarely, would be allowed to marry one of the monks]

Mary the Plant!

Mary is described as ‘growing like plants’ and some plants reproduce asexually so this is why the Quran uses this analogy. Elsewhere, the Quran says followers of Islam will be strong like plants so this interpretation is completely wrong.

3:37. Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah. for Allah Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."

Yes, the Quran uses the phrase “Wa anbataha” = and reared her, from the root N B T

“اَلنَّبْتُ” (an-nabt), “اَلنَّبَاتُ” (an-nabaat): anything that grows from the earth {R}.
“اَلْمَنْبِتُ” (al-munbit): the place to grow.
This root also has the connotation of being growing, appearing, and evident.
“نَبَتَ ثَدْیُ الجَارِیَۃِ” (alled nabata sadul jaariyah): for a girl’s chest to become evident or developed.
“نَبَتَتْ عَانَۃُ الغُلاَمِ” (nabatat aanahu ghulaam): for a boy to attain maturity.
“اَنْبَتَ الغُلاَمُ” (anbatal ghulam): for a young boy to attain maturity
“التَّنْبِیتُ” (at-tanbaitu): to nurture, upbringing {T}.
Ibn Faris says it means “growth” in something.

Arabic is a descriptive language so we cannot take Mary’s ‘growth’ to be an attribute of her ‘flowering’ ability and fertilise herself, just like every descriptive word in the Quran that applies to humans and the natural world does not turn ourselves into real donkeys just because we raise our voices harsly!
31:19 Walk humbly and lower your voice in humility. For, the harshest of voices is the voice of a donkey."
48:29 Muhammad is God’s Messenger. And those who are with him are stern towards the deniers, and compassionate among themselves. You can see them bowing, adoring (Him), as they seek God’s bounty and acceptance. Their signs (of belief) are on their faces, the effects of adoration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel. They are like a seed that brings forth its shoot, and then He strengthens it, so that it grows stout, and then stands firm on its stem, delighting those who have sown it. As a result it enrages the deniers at them. And God promises forgiveness and an immense reward to those who attain belief and do acts of beneficence. [The very first sentence in this verse says, Muhammad-ur-Rasoolullah (Muhammad is God’s Messenger.) Recently, some factions that try to belittle the exalted Prophet, have been falsely claiming that this utterance is ascribed in the Qur’an only to the hypocrites in verse 63:1. How can they miss 48:29? Athar-is-sujood is frequently mistranslated as the physical mark on the forehead resulting from regular prostration. But Wajh = Countenance = Whole being = Face, and not forehead. In addition, the verses of the Bible that the Qur’an is referring to, make no mention of any physical marks on the foreheads or faces. Sujood = Adoration = Prostrations = Complete submission. ‘Signs on their faces’ = Reflection of faith in the believer’s mannerism. Torah and Gospel: Numbers16:22. Mark 4: 27-28 – Mathew 13:3-9]

Messages In This Thread

Re: Virgin Birth
A Sayed (South Africa) -- Tuesday, 19 December 2017, 8:59 am
Re: NO Virgin Birth
Dr Shabbir, Florida -- Tuesday, 19 December 2017, 3:06 pm
Re: NO Virgin Birth
abdalaziz ariff / indianapolis -- Tuesday, 19 December 2017, 11:25 pm
Re: NO Virgin Birth
Tahir Canada -- Wednesday, 20 December 2017, 12:05 am
Re: NO Virgin Birth (TO ALL)
A Sayed (South Africa) -- Wednesday, 20 December 2017, 7:09 am
Re: NO Virgin Birth (TO ALL)
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 20 December 2017, 3:12 pm
Re: Virgin Birth (TO ALL)
A Sayed (South Africa) -- Thursday, 21 December 2017, 11:23 am
Re: Virgin Birth (TO ALL)
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 21 December 2017, 4:48 pm
Re: Virgin Birth (TO ALL)
shahalam, TX -- Thursday, 21 December 2017, 10:01 pm
Re: Virgin Birth (TO ALL)
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 22 December 2017, 8:18 am
Re: Virgin Birth (TO ALL)
A Sayed (South Africa) -- Monday, 25 December 2017, 1:03 pm
Re: Virgin Birth (TO ALL)
shahalam, TX -- Tuesday, 26 December 2017, 5:35 am
Re: Virgin Birth (TO ALL)
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 27 December 2017, 8:52 am
Re: Virgin Birth
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 19 December 2017, 3:47 pm