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Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
By:Dawood, USA
Date: Thursday, 24 August 2017, 10:49 pm
In Response To: Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd (Tahir Canada)

This is the second of the two installments. Thanks for your patience.

You wrote: “When you coin and accept a meaning that is where you make Quran "mahjoor" (25:30). You do not need to coin any meanings because the roots in Arabic have meanings enwrapped in it. Any word derived from a root reflects the meaning of that root. The root ص ل و has the meaning of following closely. There is no point in establishing any meanings ignoring the root meanings. If our starting point is not correct we can never get to correct conclusion.”

You did not understand me correctly or my writing left it confused. I did not coin any word and assigned meanings to it. What I meant was that once a word is coined by the people in their own language then it is understood in the sense and the meanings for which such a word was coined to begin with. The basic root meanings are wrapped within that word, yet people don’t care or pay attention to those basic meanings, rather they take for granted the meanings for which this word was established. I gave an example of the Arabic word “Lahma = flesh.” This word is taken from root letters lām ḥā mīm, which means: coalesced, consolidated, closed up, closely united; sewn together, threaded together; woven together, etc. Thus, “lahma=flesh” is so called because the fibers of flesh are woven together. But when this word became established, subsequently no one cares what are its basic meanings. Everyone uses it to mean flesh/meat. You cannot redefine it in any other way. Exactly the same way, word Salat=prayer is well-established since Ibrahim at least. Prophet Zachariya is quoted doing prayer in Quran. Quraish knew it and used to do Salat. You cannot redefine it any other way.

You mention, the root ص ل و mean following closely. Please educate me how did you find this to be the case?

Second, try using “Salat=following closely” in verses where Salat occurs, for example in 62:9?

You wrote: “It is simple to understand the words. When called to salat that time becomes time of gathering or day of gathering if we translate yaum as a day.”

This is erroneous understanding perhaps because of the translation from Arabic to English. The phrase in English and Arabic in 62:9 is: “… when call is made for Salat on the day of gathering (idhā nūdiya lilṣṣalati min yawmi l-jumuʿati)….” Therefore, any random day is not the “day of gathering” even if call is made for such a gathering. It is simple Arabic. Even today, if Adhan is made not at prescribed five daily times rather at random, people ask and will ask what is the matter, why it has been made? The day of gathering was known to them well in advance and the same is abundantly mentioned and written about in classic lexicons and history. No reinvention is needed.

You wrote: “Quraish established a practice of getting together for consultation as per Lughat ul Quran. The identification of that day of gathering was consultation and not prayer. Thus Al-Aruba became yaum ul jumaati then Aljuma and then Friday - fixed for ritual prayer like jews and christians. Quran says Ibrahim AS was not a jew or a christian but a hanif muslim. (3:67)”

You are confusing two things, (i) the day of gathering and (ii) the purpose of gathering. Quran does not concern itself with the latter (ii). What was Quraish’s purpose is not necessarily Quran’s purpose. Quran clearly identifies it to be " the day of gathering," well-known by the people, thus, leaving no ambiguity so that people expect a call for Salat on this day. Quran’s purpose is/was calling people FOR salat on this day and not for consultation. Consultation is your extra-quranic notion. You are bringing in irrelevant stuff related to 3:67, it has no bearing on 62:9.

Further, from your own writing, it is clearly established that Quraish knew the day of gathering, thus, your effort above to make any day a day of gathering is untenable.

You wrote: “Yes Dawood bhai purpose is "to call people [to] the salat" and not "to know that the time of congregational salat has come". You see how leaving the original text conveys different meanings.”

It does not matter what you define Salat to be at this stage of yours. When people are called for Salat, they will gather for Salat. When people gather for something, to do something, that is a gathering in general and a congregation in religious sense. The original text is “…When the call is made FOR salat on the day of gathering…”. Where did I leave the original text?

You wrote: “Sorry to repeat but it is call "to the salat" and not for prayers. We must know what salat means as per root ص ل و.”

This is an error you are repeating. (i) I asked you above please show me the root letters “ص ل و” = “following closely.” (ii) what makes you think, you and me are qualified to define it the way we want it, despite the fact our standing in Arabic language is next to nothing? (iii) Is this word used in a sentence or alone? So on and so forth. I will respond to when you tackle such questions.

You wrote: “I meant we must adhere to the words of Quran without assuming anything. The words of Quran might not be what we assume.”

Yes, I agree with this observation in principle. Where did I assume the words of Quran to be something other than what these are as per the language? AM I assuming things or you, my brother? The words of Quran are well-defined in the language, are well understood by the people who spoke/speak the language for last 1400 years? I am simply quoting those meanings from classic lexicons. On the other hand, I will see how you define and use the word “ص ل و = following closely.”!!!

You wrote: “My point is that the term adhan or words used in adhan are not given in Quran, commanding us to call people for a fixed ritual on a fixed day at a fixed time.”

Do you find this in 62:9: “… when call is made for Salat on the day of gathering (idhā nūdiya lilṣṣalati min yawmi l-jumuʿati)….”? Which obviously you do. How did prophet make this CALL if exact words/phrases are not given in Quran? Either he waited for God to tell him or he used his faculties and consulted with his companions to devise a method/mode to fulfill this command, which he dutifully did as long as he lived. Is prophet’s method/mode/manner of calling people to salat not worthy of our attention and following? God did not tell prophet either when to make this CALL on the day of gathering. He must have chosen a suitable time for such a CALL which he did. Is this not worthy of our attention and following? If such a CALL had some specific words adopted by prophet, delivered in a specific manner authorized by prophet, delivered at a specific suitable time chosen by prophet, for the specific purpose of Salat, how does it not become a fixed ritual on a fixed day at a fixed time? The same method/mode is adopted by Muslims following in the footsteps of prophet for last 1400 years. How is this method/mode somehow tainted in 20th century and need reinterpretation? I am amazed the way you are thinking!!!!

Best Regards,
Dawood

Messages In This Thread

Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 17 July 2017, 11:04 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 18 July 2017, 2:56 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 19 July 2017, 10:51 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 20 July 2017, 2:39 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 20 July 2017, 10:20 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 21 July 2017, 7:43 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 24 July 2017, 10:33 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:42 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 8:47 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 26 July 2017, 11:34 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 27 July 2017, 9:06 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 28 July 2017, 10:11 am
Re: Sadddlat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 31 July 2017, 4:39 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:57 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:09 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Wednesday, 26 July 2017, 11:48 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 28 July 2017, 9:11 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 29 July 2017, 11:08 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
sahil -- Sunday, 30 July 2017, 11:39 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 29 July 2017, 3:53 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 31 July 2017, 7:20 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 1 August 2017, 5:19 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 2 August 2017, 11:04 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 3 August 2017, 8:28 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 3 August 2017, 8:28 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 5 August 2017, 11:01 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 5 August 2017, 3:12 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 7 August 2017, 10:18 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 8 August 2017, 7:41 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 8 August 2017, 10:26 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 7:30 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 7:52 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 10 August 2017, 7:24 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 9:52 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 12 August 2017, 3:40 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 15 August 2017, 8:25 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 16 August 2017, 7:25 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 17 August 2017, 10:14 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 18 August 2017, 7:50 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 9:02 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 10:36 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Saturday, 12 August 2017, 7:18 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 15 August 2017, 8:50 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Friday, 18 August 2017, 5:19 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 22 August 2017, 6:48 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Thursday, 24 August 2017, 3:53 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 25 August 2017, 9:40 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 24 August 2017, 10:49 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 25 August 2017, 8:02 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 25 August 2017, 9:52 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 26 August 2017, 8:01 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Saturday, 26 August 2017, 9:50 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 29 August 2017, 10:53 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Friday, 25 August 2017, 10:19 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 29 August 2017, 11:47 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 30 August 2017, 7:42 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 30 August 2017, 10:30 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 31 August 2017, 1:54 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Wednesday, 30 August 2017, 10:38 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 1 September 2017, 10:28 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Sunday, 3 September 2017, 5:50 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 5 September 2017, 11:28 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 6 September 2017, 4:19 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Friday, 8 September 2017, 12:35 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 8:01 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 10 August 2017, 7:31 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 14 August 2017, 7:54 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 14 August 2017, 8:09 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 15 August 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 16 August 2017, 7:40 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 17 August 2017, 10:08 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 18 August 2017, 8:03 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Sunday, 30 July 2017, 12:46 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 31 July 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Wednesday, 2 August 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 3 August 2017, 7:00 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 24 August 2017, 7:55 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 24 August 2017, 11:29 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 25 August 2017, 8:12 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 25 August 2017, 9:47 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 26 August 2017, 8:37 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 29 August 2017, 10:48 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 30 August 2017, 7:58 am