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Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
By:Dawood, USA
Date: Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:09 pm

Welcome Razi bhai.

Razi wrote: “Br. Dawood your whole explanation is based on conjecture and your own wishful thinking.”

Thank you for pointing it out, it is indeed one of the possibilities. As a human researcher, I don’t consider my understanding as a final word, rather it is my understanding at this stage, it could change tomorrow if my research leads me to that. Based on tasreef, grammar, lexicon, etc., I have provided my understanding of the word “Nataq” in 53:3 and how it relates to the whole issue at hand. In my understanding, 53:4 CANNOT refer to Quran, for Quran is not even mentioned in these verses.

Razi wrote: “Mere claim of revelation and the narration of revealed Ayats would have been sufficient for people to accuse and label Exalted Prophet, after all “revelation” in itself was an extraordinary phenomenon that would not have required Prophet’s explanation of his experience for doubting and ridiculing.”

There has to be a beginning for everything except God. Chap 53 is referring to such a beginning. The exalted prophet was a normal Joe, going about his business as usual. Let us assume, a verse or set of verses were suddenly revealed to him the first time. Immediate question is “what did he make of these verses coming to his head/heart without any context?” What would anyone think in such circumstances? Obviously, a sane person would reject such things coming to one’s mind. In order to fully appreciate the enormity of this encounter, the concept of God, Eman, etc., need be flushed out first before he could go out to deliver the message.

Now assume as you suggest, he got these verses, came running to deliver to others. Did he started repeating verses whoever met him? Or he began to inform them that “God is one, he is a messenger of God, he received these verses ….” Would they not ask him, tell us about this encounter, how things happened, etc. etc.? All of this indeed happened and verses 53:2-5 or so are witness to this.

Razi wrote: “Further, your statement that “Revelations not fully captured in the Quran were meant for prophet himself, teaching him, for example…….” Shows that like N2I you also believe in Angel Jibreel visited numerous times, according to some N2I scholar 23,000 times, sometime to reveal Quran and sometime with other purpose. Some of revelations were captured in Quran and some of it become Hadith-Qudsi. Wow!”

As per my understanding, only two encounters (the first-ever and one at other time) captured in chap 53 are mentioned in which prophet saw the angel Gabriel. It is obvious from other verses that Quran was brought to his heart in stages by angel Gabriel, but it is not mentioned if he saw the angel other times. So I restrict my understanding to only chap 53. If N2I indicates that angle Gabriel visited prophet, how does it negate these verses? It only strengthens the idea that yes, angel Gabriel visited him. How many times, I don’t have to speculate, 23000 or 23 or 10, 20, etc., does not matter in my calculation. There are indication in Quran however that God did reveal/inform him of certain things for his personal purposes, one such example is information given to him by God in 66:3. I don’t give much weight to hadeeth stuff unless it agrees with the Quran.

Razi wrote: “Whole phenomenon of “Wahi” is beyond the comprehension of human mind; that is why “The Book” is one of the five constituents of Iman upon which we chose to believe. Anybody’s conclusion, claimed to be drawn from understanding of “process” of Revelation is nothing but misguidance.”

Yes, indeed the whole “wahi phenomenon” is beyond our grasp. It is however not correct to suggest that this is the reason for our belief in the book. The belief in the Book is required so that we take the book as a basis of our law/constitution to judge between the people. This is equivalent to ratifying a treaty, document, law, etc. My understanding about how the process of wahi might have unfolded stems from verses 53:6-12. These are verses of the Quran, we are supposed to study, ponder, and reflect upon. It would be conjecture at my part if I start speculating how big was Gabriel, how many wings, etc., etc.

Razi wrote: “Furthermore, your assertion “If anyone does not do these manasiks as Quran demands, he/she is not following the Quran, no matter what one says” is almost a “fatwa” of N2I scholar. By your reverence of “manasiks”, not found in Quran, you raised the level of those “manasiks” almost to the text of Quran of which Allah has taken guarantee.”

Although, I don’t believe in Fatwa as N2I does, surely it sounds one if delinked from the context. As per my understanding all Manasiks are in Quran, the exalted prophet provided practical implementation of those manasiks. For example, referring to Salat, four basic and fundamental elements, namely, wudu, qiam, ruku, and sujood are in Quran. Thus, when Quran is preserved, so do manasiks being part of the Quran.

Razi wrote: “Finally, my two cents: Why Allah didn’t explained these so important “manasiks” in His Quran of which He has taken guarantee. Why He missed to provide the details of those so essential rituals in His “full detailed” Quran where He missed “nothing”?In case of inheritance Allah explains in detail even to the extent of fractions, then why Allah didn’t said, “Pray five times a day” and “2 rakats in Fajr”, “4 in Dhur” etc.? For so essential religious rituals, why Allah left humanity to deduce it from some Ayats instead of direct and clear command or depend upon “Tawatur – chain of continuity” whose reliability cannot be ascertained and guaranteed like words of “Quran”.””

Now my two cents in response to your two cents. It is absurd at my part to speculate the reasons God did not provide minute details, yet I will speculate. Questions like this were perhaps raised during the time of prophet as well, to which God responded in 5:101-102.

The purpose of Salat is achieved even if “one Raka’t” is offered in Salat. This one unit is mentioned in Quran, though in connection with shortened prayer, thus, two units for normal prayer. All other variants are coming from prophet’s actions. Salat was never an issue until very recently, yet those who think prophet’s actions are not well preserved they may not follow them, yet they have no choice but to do two raka’t to comply with the mandated Salat, if they claim to follow the Quran.

Quran is not “detailed” as per the meanings in English language, rather it is “distinct/clear/unambiguous” etc. Quran does not provide details of everything, rather principles. One must ask this question and then seek an honest answer (not giv aliens meanings and non-grammatical/untenable answers): How did prophet performed Ibrahimic Manasiks he was asked by God to do?

Finally, Quran did not come to companions from the outer space and they were left wondering “to deduce something from some ayat” etc., rather, it was revealed to a man over 23 years, who practiced it right in front of them during those 23 years. The concept of salat and how to do it was so well understood that we don’t find even a single question related to this aspect.

Best Regards
Dawood

Messages In This Thread

Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 17 July 2017, 11:04 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 18 July 2017, 2:56 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 19 July 2017, 10:51 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 20 July 2017, 2:39 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 20 July 2017, 10:20 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 21 July 2017, 7:43 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 24 July 2017, 10:33 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:42 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 8:47 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 26 July 2017, 11:34 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 27 July 2017, 9:06 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 28 July 2017, 10:11 am
Re: Sadddlat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 31 July 2017, 4:39 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:57 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:09 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Wednesday, 26 July 2017, 11:48 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 28 July 2017, 9:11 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 29 July 2017, 11:08 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
sahil -- Sunday, 30 July 2017, 11:39 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 29 July 2017, 3:53 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 31 July 2017, 7:20 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 1 August 2017, 5:19 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 2 August 2017, 11:04 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 3 August 2017, 8:28 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 3 August 2017, 8:28 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 5 August 2017, 11:01 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 5 August 2017, 3:12 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 7 August 2017, 10:18 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 8 August 2017, 7:41 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 8 August 2017, 10:26 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 7:30 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 7:52 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 10 August 2017, 7:24 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 9:52 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 12 August 2017, 3:40 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 15 August 2017, 8:25 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 16 August 2017, 7:25 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 9:02 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 10:36 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Saturday, 12 August 2017, 7:18 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 15 August 2017, 8:50 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 8:01 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 10 August 2017, 7:31 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 14 August 2017, 7:54 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 14 August 2017, 8:09 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 15 August 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 16 August 2017, 7:40 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Sunday, 30 July 2017, 12:46 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 31 July 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Wednesday, 2 August 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 3 August 2017, 7:00 pm