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Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
By:Dawood, USA
Date: Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 8:47 pm
In Response To: Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd (jawaid ahmed,uk)

You wrote: “Where does it say this is the revelation after the first encounter? Nowhere.”

You write/review just first few verses 53:1-5 and then ask question about the first encounter found in verses 53:6-10. Yet, you would claim to take the context into consideration? Verse 53:13 is referring to a second encounter. Thus, 53:6-14 is a reference to the first encounter, undoubtedly. What transpired in this encounter was subsequently revealed by the prophet to his family, friends and people at large, thus, people at large labeled him as “Dala and Ghawa”, which God refuted in 53:2-3. Then God equated prophet’s “Nataq = speech/diction” (will explain below) related to this encounter with Wahi in 53:4.

You wrote: “The Messenger narrated, spoke, uttered, the Words of the Quran using his own tongue, so NATAQ applies to this, not his own speech relating to the first encounter, once upon a time I met Gabriel whilst in a cave.”

Your above erroneous definition of Nataq is your own. Verses of Quran are “nazul” form of wahi, i.e. these are exact word-for-word dictations, not of prophet’s own words/ideas, whereas Nataq is human speech in which a person has to express ideas and meanings by his own words and voice. Here are its meanings from both Lughat and Lane:

Lughat, p. 1630: Speech with words that makes meanings clear; Muheet said, Nataq is specific for human speech; Then it also used to express something clearly; Raghib said, Nataq is the word that encompasses the meanings;

Lane, p. 3034: he pronounced it, or articulated it; He talked or discoursed with him; they two talked or discoursed with each other; speech, diction, or expression of ideas by words and voice.

Further, it is used 12 times in Quran, nowhere referring to God’s revealed words. The word “huwa” in 53:4 is undoubtedly referring to “yantiqu = his speech”. Quran is nowhere found in these verses. Thus, context, lexicon, grammar, and tasreef all support that Quran is not being referred in Nataq, rather the explanation and recounting of the encounter mentioned in 53:6 onward is linked to Nataq. Therefore, 53:10 is not only referring to Quran but also quite a few other things which were needed to begin the process of prophethood and nuzul of Quran.

You wrote: “If the Messenger had received revelation not mentioned in the Quran, then was this so unimportant it need not go in the Quran? You say it was important as he received articles of faith from Gabriel, but this makes no sense. All such things on Eman etc are not covered in 53:10 as NONE OF THEM ARE MENTIONED THERE, this is idle, dangerous speculation to deceive the masses into believing in things not in the Quran and giving them the authority of Allah or the Messenger!”

It is indeed dangerous and speculative to reduce Quran to our pre-conceived notions and ideas. Prophet is made prophet of God, but nowhere it is mentioned God invited him to become the prophet? God sends angle Gabriel to him to deliver the Quran, yet angel Gabriel does not introduce himself to prophet as to who is he, what is his purpose? God has not introduced Himself to prophet either as He did to Moses? Was our prophet already aware of God but Moses was not? Did prophet become Muslim when Gabriel visited him the first time? Yes/No? If Yes, where is the verse inviting him to become a Muslim? If No, how could God send his verses to convey to others through a person who is not himself a Muslim yet to begin with? I can go on. The point is all such things and more must have been covered in this first encounter, else the process could have not begun.

“Speculations to deceive masses” is indeed undertaken, knowingly or unknowingly, by some so called Quran-only folks to define well-known, specific words of Quran in such a generic way that any wayward meanings could be associated with such terms and terminologies. As an example, Quran uses word “Manasik (plurals)” to define religious practices, brother Jawaid makes it a singular one from plural, then defines it to be an element of faith instead of “practice”, ….

You wrote: ““creed of Ibrahim, the exalted prophet, and the Quran.” Is the same as following Quran with hadith, the hadith being fake news.”

Haha. I asked you earlier something along the lines, do you have any idea what hadeeth are, when these were compiled and for what purpose? When God asked prophet to follow the “creed of Ibrahim”, did he followed non-existent “hadeeth”? when prophet asked his companions to follow me, did they copy his behavior and follow his actions or they followed non-existent “hadeeth”? If hadeeth mentions “prophet followed Quran,” should this fact be discarded because hadeeth mentioned it?

Don’t you find verses in Quran that unambiguously state “follow the creed of Ibrahim?” The answer is absolute Yes, don’t you ask yourself, how did prophet himself complied with this order/injunction from God? Instead of seeking honest answers, brother you go on dismissing and erroneously generalizing such verses. Yet, the claim is we follow the Quran. Sure!!!

Best Regards,

Dawood

Messages In This Thread

Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 17 July 2017, 11:04 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 18 July 2017, 2:56 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 19 July 2017, 10:51 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 20 July 2017, 2:39 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 20 July 2017, 10:20 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 21 July 2017, 7:43 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 24 July 2017, 10:33 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:42 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 8:47 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 26 July 2017, 11:34 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 27 July 2017, 9:06 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 28 July 2017, 10:11 am
Re: Sadddlat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 31 July 2017, 4:39 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:57 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 25 July 2017, 9:09 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Wednesday, 26 July 2017, 11:48 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 28 July 2017, 9:11 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 29 July 2017, 11:08 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
sahil -- Sunday, 30 July 2017, 11:39 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 29 July 2017, 3:53 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 31 July 2017, 7:20 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 1 August 2017, 5:19 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 2 August 2017, 11:04 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 3 August 2017, 8:28 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 3 August 2017, 8:28 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 5 August 2017, 11:01 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 5 August 2017, 3:12 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 7 August 2017, 10:18 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 8 August 2017, 7:41 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 8 August 2017, 10:26 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 7:30 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 7:52 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 10 August 2017, 7:24 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 9:52 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 12 August 2017, 3:40 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 15 August 2017, 8:25 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 16 August 2017, 7:25 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 17 August 2017, 10:14 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 18 August 2017, 7:50 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 9:02 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 10:36 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Saturday, 12 August 2017, 7:18 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 15 August 2017, 8:50 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Tahir Canada -- Friday, 18 August 2017, 5:19 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 9 August 2017, 8:01 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 10 August 2017, 7:31 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 11 August 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 14 August 2017, 7:54 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 14 August 2017, 8:09 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 15 August 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 16 August 2017, 7:40 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 17 August 2017, 10:08 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 18 August 2017, 8:03 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Sunday, 30 July 2017, 12:46 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 31 July 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Razi, India -- Wednesday, 2 August 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, (jawaid ahmed) cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 3 August 2017, 7:00 pm