Our Beacon Forum

Re: Salat 1 to 5: One Salat cont'd
By:Dawood, USA
Date: Monday, 17 July 2017, 11:59 pm

You wrote: “We have been over the meaning of words and their ritualised understanding given to us by our ancestors, here is the verse on Abraham once again without this distortion”

I have given you my understanding of 2:125 elsewhere, here I am only respond to “the meanings of words and their ritual understanding.” Dear brother, neither the context, nor lexicons, grammars, etc. are in support of your wild assertions, then what bases do you have to suggest that “their ritual understanding” is in error and that yours non-ritual understanding is correct? Such wild notions are summarily dismissed.

You wrote: “If we accept that this means physical acts, then where does it say what words to say at this time, or how many prostrations etc etc. The linking of multiple verses and making up what to say and do is not a clear message coming from the Quran on what is being undertaken as a ritual prayer.”

Did God answer Ibrahim’s this supplication?

[2:128]: Our Lord, and make us Muslims [in submission] to You and from our descendants a Muslim nation [in submission] to You. And show us our rites (religious practices) and accept our repentance. …

The answer is He did. Two of such “rites” including Salat are mentioned in 2:125. What is to be read in Salat is found in [29:45]:

[29:45]: “Recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book and establish prayer. Indeed, prayer prohibits immorality and wrongdoing, and the remembrance of Allah is greater. And Allah knows that which you do.”

At least one prostration is mentioned in shortened salat in 4:102. You can undertake more than one though if you like.

“linking of multiple verses is not a clear message from the Quran…” BUT linking of allegorical verses and overriding the clear verses is? Is that what you are suggesting?

You wrote: Does the Quran say that the rites they do were all sanctioned by Allah?

Yes, it does. Read [22:67]: For every religion We have appointed rites which they perform. So, [O Muhammad], let the disbelievers not contend with you over the matter but invite them to your Lord. Indeed, you are upon straight guidance.

First, did God say in 22:67 that their rites are not sanctioned by God, rather it states “God appointed rites” for them? Second, why God is asking prophet to ask them don’t contend/argue about this? It is obvious their rites are not the issue, rather these rites need be purged from non-monotheistic stuff.

You wrote: “If you read the verse in context [very easy to create a new religion by reading verses out of context] Allah says that He will judge what they do as rites.”

Yes, indeed it is very easy to create a new religion reading out of context as some do here under the banner of Quran. Before reading 22:69, please read 22:68 as well. What is the context in which 22:69 appears? It is addressing their argument over rites (theirs being better or different or whatever) and God is asking prophet to stay clear of this argument and refer the matter to God.

You wrote: “Do they have any bases in reality? Do they violate human rights? Do they stop you from thinking and plunge your minds into acts of mindless repetition for the sake of mindless repetition? If they are doing 'rites' then them doing it themselves is not the same as Allah telling them that they could do them!”

Logical fallacies brother. Salat’s purpose is to remember God and His commandments. Safeguarding “Human rights” is one of His commandments. Those who truly do Salat will surely safeguard this commandment. It is violated by both groups equally though. As to who appoints the “rites”, see 22:67 quoted above.

You wrote: “Even Yusuf Ali translates they will be judged so the ‘rites’ are NOT ALL from God.”

Nothing is surprising here. People do tend to differ over minor and major things after the departure of prophets. It is indeed conceivable people could introduce some more details to the rites over and above what God had appointed for them. How does this nullify 22:67?

You wrote: Now add your 3:64 verse and the context is again THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD.

Monotheism is not equal to “rites.” Don’t mix apples and oranges. Period.

You wrote: “Where are the rites of a physical ritual namaz or stoning satanic pillars in any verse you have quoted regarding the rites of Abraham. “

I think I have quoted enough verses to show you the physical form of Salat. This has been the practice since our beloved prophet. On the contrary, you do not have even an iota of evidence from Quran except your extraquranic notions to press on Salat equal so and so…. By the way, did I mention stoning anywhere?

Best Regards
Dawood

Messages In This Thread

Re: Salat 1 to 5: One Salat cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 17 July 2017, 11:59 pm
Re: Salat 1 to 5: One Salat cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 18 July 2017, 11:34 am
Re: Salat 1 to 5: One Salat cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 19 July 2017, 10:55 pm
Re: Salat 1 to 5: One Salat cont'd
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 20 July 2017, 2:22 pm
Re: Salat 1 to 5: One Salat cont'd
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 20 July 2017, 10:17 pm