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Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
By:Dawood, USA
Date: Friday, 30 June 2017, 10:31 pm
In Response To: Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed (jawaid ahmed,uk)

You wrote: “You wrote the Messenger had none Quran revelation, conversations with Jibreel, and that is where he got some things from so why are you saying you are not quoting from 'other' sources?”

Did I quote any source besides Quran to conclude what I did? No. I am not stating anything outside the Quran. Earlier I wrote: “It is therefore abundantly clear that all religious rites, including Salat, starting right from prophet Ibrahim and Ismael were being practiced at the time our exalted prophet was commissioned. It is conceivable that those rites may have gone under some changes, adulterated, and contaminated over long period since God’s revelations were not fully recorded and preserved until Quran. Thus, such contaminations were removed by the prophet under Wahi/inspiration.” As per my understanding, verse 53:10 “So/thus he revealed (Wahi) to His salve, what he revealed (Wahi)” is a generic pointer to this Wahi/inspiration. It is in this extra ordinary encounter that prophet was informed of who is God, His plans to make him a prophet, etc.

You wrote: “You also wrote the people knew what salat was so they knew how to pray as you do, which is none Quran but ancestor following.”

Yes, indeed people knew what Salat was, this is confirmed by Quran. Salat as a prayer was/is never in doubt. This salat/prayer they were doing at the House. You cannot put "salat=following Allah" without distorting the verses. Arabs know today as well what it is, ask an Arab and he would tell you what is Salat. If a new messenger were to come today, he would know what salat is. The only thing he would have to do is to decontaminate it if God informs him of some problems with the present salat. This is what our exalted prophet did.

Since Ibrahim, all prophets and their followers performed Salat. Prophet and all Muslims are asked to follow “Millah = creed=religion of Ibrahim.” As I mentioned earlier elsewhere, Millah is nothing but practices, methods, ways of following one’s religion. This is further clarified in terms of “Manasiks = religious rites” Ibrahim did, and prophet along with Muslims are asked to follow those. If following Ibrahim way/practice is ancestor following, then first and the foremost prophet himself stand guilty of this. I shudder at such wild thoughts. Further, God is unambiguously asking prophet and all Muslims to follow these practices in terms of religion. Thus, those who advocate otherwise are not following the Quran, their claim notwithstanding.

You wrote: “There is no 'ablution' verse or 'abstinence' verse equivalent for salat, detailing what you do. Hence the need to make the Quran 'clear' for namaz prayer by looking at numerous verses for the most impotent act performed 5 times a day by people.”

Earlier you wrote “… I can choose not to do abstinence in Ramadan, ignore the do not eat etc. as the 'do not eat' equivalent instructions are not there in the Quran.” So you could not honor the “abstinence” verse either when it presented itself to you. It is not the absence or presence of a verse that is a problem, your problem is somewhere else.

Ablution has four elements. Salat’s foremost elements of Qiam, Ruku, and Sujud are all mentioned repeatedly in Quran and in many verses. Yet, you state these are not there? In 2:125, the place where Ibrahim performed “Qiam” is called “Musalla = place to perform Salat”, then Ruku and Sujud are mentioned in the same verse. Thus, at the House, the following elements are clearly established: (i) Salat with Qiam, Ruku, and Sujud; (ii) Tawaf, Circumambulation around the House; Aakefeen, those who stay there to do both (i) and (ii).

Further, prophet is asked to “You stand/lead them in prayer/salat” which ends (in short form) after Sujud in 4:102. All Muslims are asked to do Wudu when they stand up for prayer in 5:6. Yet, you complain Salat details are not there. Please note, as I mentioned earlier, Quran does not provide “details” as in English word “detail” rather it provides principles, commands, and injunctions, leaving details to its recipients. The first and the foremost recipient was prophet himself. When he purified the salat and then established it that is the way for Muslims. Muslims at the time of the exalted prophet were asked to follow the prophet, which they did except hypocrites. Nowhere in the quran, it is mentioned that Muslims ever had any trouble in doing salat, in understanding it, and then practicing it. Not even a single question is asked on this account, it was so well understood and established.

You wrote: “Have you got a list of all the verses you need to perform the namaz? Do they give the complete picture? Does this make sense as they do not?”

Just one verse 2:125 is enough for a believer to find that three elements of Salat Qiam, Ruku, and Sujud are required in Salat. Of course purpose of salat is remembrance of God which cannot be achieved without reading the Quran in the Salat. Thus, you do wudu before any salat, you stand, read Quran whatever you want, do Ruku/bow again exalt God using words/phrases from Quran, do sujood/prostration the same way. End of the story. If you however want how prophet might have done the salat, then look towards your ancestors, as did the exalted prophet looked at his ancestor Ibrahim.

You wrote: “Salat is not an allegorical concept. The Quran says it has allegorical and literal verses, so the literal verses should and are CLEAR to understand, so yes, I want a clear verse telling me what to do if it wants us to do namaz.”

Was a clear verse on “abstinence” enough for you? No, you found fault with that one too, isn’t it? Could it be more clearer than this to tell the prophet as well as the believers to follow the millah/creed of Ibrahim and the Manasik/rites there in? You are willing to look at “birds in flight” allegorical verse in respect of birds, then use it to define literal verses on Salat, but not willing to use clear literal verses related to Ibrahimic practices. How do you judge?

You wrote: “Food for thought, or abstaining from thinking!”

I wrote enough above for thinking minds. It is up to each one of us to think or not.

Best Regards
Dawood

Messages In This Thread

Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Noman Waseem, NJ -- Monday, 26 June 2017, 5:32 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 6:32 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 28 June 2017, 7:24 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 28 June 2017, 9:59 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 29 June 2017, 7:26 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 29 June 2017, 9:23 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 30 June 2017, 7:35 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 30 June 2017, 10:31 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Asif -- Saturday, 1 July 2017, 12:19 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 1 July 2017, 3:28 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 5 July 2017, 10:06 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 6 July 2017, 7:43 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 6 July 2017, 9:44 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 7 July 2017, 7:28 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 11 July 2017, 5:41 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Asif -- Thursday, 6 July 2017, 6:20 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 6 July 2017, 2:23 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Asif -- Saturday, 8 July 2017, 5:48 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 8 July 2017, 2:48 pm
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
Asif -- Sunday, 9 July 2017, 3:36 am
Re: Salat, Tasbih, Birds, and Other (jawaid ahmed
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 10 July 2017, 7:45 am