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Re: Salat and Qibla
By:Dawood, USA
Date: Friday, 16 June 2017, 9:17 pm
In Response To: Re: Salat and Qibla (jawaid ahmed,uk)

You wrote: “Dawood,Bhai, you are building a house of straws and at every stage you alter or ignore verses that do not fit your ideas. Salat for birds, no, a qibla becomes directionless for Moses when you believe it is a direction to pray in, and Moses could not have revelation except for ‘let the people go’ and a stick.”

Haha, building a house of straws? Jawaid bhai, let me be clear once more. I am not taking a broad brush and painting everything black and white as you do without recourse to the book. Every prophet had to go through different phases of struggle during their ministry. Quran is witness to this. You are not reading these verses in context, thus, your confusion.

Second, I am not ignoring the verses, rather reading them in context as to where, at what stage, these verses were revealed to Moses, for example. You are either unable to do this and understand it, or being plain stubborn to accept this. As an example, let me look at a set of verses 6:150 onwards you quoted.

In this respect, the context begins from 6:136 onwards in which certain rulings of halal and haram, particularly with respect to animals, have been imposed by the people and their clergy. To this, prophet is asked to respond in 6:145. Certain parts of animals forbidden to Jews are mentioned in 6:146 as a punishment. In 6:148, another argument of mushriks (not Jews) is brought forward, namely, if God wanted, we and our forefathers have not done so. To this, God asked prophet Muhammad to ask them to bring the argument. This is followed by 6:149, “Say, "With Allah is the far-reaching, ultimate argument. If He had willed, He would have guided you all." Then comes 6:150, God asking prophet Muhammad to ask them to bring their witness that Allah did forbade so and so… God telling prophet Muhammad they will bring falsehood, don’t agree to it or follow it. From 6:151 through 6:153, God is conveying His rulings as to what is forbidden, not just meat, but other stuff as well. This is followed by the book of Moses in 6:154 and this Book, Quran 6:155.

Please note, in 6:154 Moses’ book is mentioned along with its attributes, distinct explanation of all things, Guidance, and Mercy for believers. Just a bit of Tasreef would clear the confusion you are in:

[7:142-145]: And We made an appointment with Moses for thirty nights and perfected them by [the addition of] ten; .. ….. [Allah] said, "O Moses, I have chosen you over the people with MY MESSAGES and MY WORDS [to you]. ..."And We wrote for him on the TABLETS of all things - instruction and explanation for all things, [saying], "Take them with determination and order your people to take the best of it. I will show you the home of the defiantly disobedient."

[2:51-53]: And [recall] when We made an appointment with Moses for forty nights. Then you took [for worship] the calf after him, while you were wrongdoers…… And [recall] when We gave Moses the Scripture (Book) and criterion that perhaps you would be guided.

Reading 6:154, 7:142-145, and 2:51-53 together, the following conclusions are evidently manifested: Moses was given the book after 40 nights. This book was also called Tablets, Criterion, and contained instructions and explanations for all things.

Now just ask yourself, did 40 nights of Moses occur in Egypt before exodus or after exodus? Answer is obvious in verses preceding 7:142. For example, in 7:136, God informs us that Pharaoh and his people were drowned in Sea, thus, exodus in 7:138. Thus, 40 nights occurred after exodus. Therefore, the Book Moses brought with the likewise verses was not given to Pharaoh and his people. They were already drowned.

Therefore, it is obvious you mixed apples and oranges when you wrote: “Note the LIKEWISE, WE HAD GIVEN TO MOSES, so he had these ‘signs’, ayats which you say are only frogs and pestilence but every scholar say means verses, revelation, as well as physical signs in nature etc.”

No, dear brother, Moses did not have the book before exodus, thus, these verses you are referring to were not sent to Pharaoh, rather the “signs” I mentioned earlier in my previous posts were sent to Pharaoh. Therefore, it is established beyond an iota of doubt that the only message sent to Pharaoh was “let children of Israel go with me ….”, rest were signs from God to induce them to “let the children of Israel go….”. In this respect, see 7:134:

[7:134]: And when the punishment descended upon them, they said, "O Moses, invoke for us your Lord by what He has promised you. If you [can] remove the punishment from us, we will surely believe you, and we will send with you the Children of Israel."

All other stuff is irrelevant with respect to Moses and Pharaoh, and is relevant to children of Israel after exodus. At this stage, I did not and don’t want to get into another topic within this topic as to what those “signs” may mean. This will take me away from the current topic, already off rail quite a bit.

You wrote: “Does saying ‘let my people go’ require you to be eloquent in speech? Note also, 20:34.”

This is interesting and is again your misunderstanding and is due to not reading the verses in their context. Yes, it is obvious that Moses will just not say “let the children of Israel go with me…” rather they had to talk since Moses was presenting himself a messenger from God with a message. But what was the message, it was consistent throughout Moses stay, let children of Israel go with me… Pharaoh would not do that, thus the struggle went on for many years until Moses exhausted all “signs” God gave him, and simultaneously he was able to prepare the children of Israel to follow him. During their stay in Egypt, no other commands/injunctions were given to them, except “believe in God, stay steadfast, and rely on God, and do Salat in your houses”

If you want to really know what is the difference between the words used in 20:27 and in 28:34, see Lughat page 1181, and 1285, and Lane 2105.

What about 20:34? [20;34]: “wanadhkuraka kathīran = And we remember you much.” It has the word from “Dhikr”, same dhikr for which Salat is to be performed.

Best Regards,
Dawood

Messages In This Thread

Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 10:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:27 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 1:14 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 2:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:25 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Friday, 26 May 2017, 3:08 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Ali Syed New Jersey -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 11:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 8:23 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Monday, 29 May 2017, 8:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 30 May 2017, 7:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 4 June 2017, 11:55 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 2:49 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 9:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:35 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 10:21 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 7:56 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:04 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:28 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 18 June 2017, 7:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 19 June 2017, 6:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 2:00 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 8:39 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 9:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 8:54 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 7:59 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 11:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 24 June 2017, 8:48 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 26 June 2017, 9:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 8:40 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 9:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla / Post deleted
Fadil / Dr Shabbir -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 4:31 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
SHabib, Canada -- Sunday, 28 May 2017, 5:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 31 May 2017, 3:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 1 June 2017, 7:38 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:07 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:51 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 3 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:41 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:26 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:43 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:06 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:07 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 10:09 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:42 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:34 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:10 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:50 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:54 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:11 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 8:30 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 11:09 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 9:11 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:29 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:16 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:34 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 8:08 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 9:40 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 9:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 17 June 2017, 3:35 pm