Our Beacon Forum

Re: Salat and Qibla
By:jawaid ahmed,uk
Date: Friday, 16 June 2017, 8:22 am
In Response To: Re: Salat and Qibla (Dawood, USA)

Dawood,Bhai, you are building a house of straws and at every stage you alter or ignore verses that do not fit your ideas. Salat for birds, no, a qibla becomes directionless for Moses when you believe it is a direction to pray in, and Moses could not have revelation except for ‘let the people go’ and a stick.

Note the Quran says the people with Moses were there for YEARS. What did they do? Did they do nothing except pray to God whilst the pharaonic system around them collapsed? The Quran says every messenger had a message to give but you say that was only after they left Egypt, makes no sense.

I differ from you and when I quoted Dr Shabbir, your mentor, you accused me of bringing my own mocking understanding of the Quran.
However, please allow me to pursue your refusal to believe Moses had no proper revelation to present to pharaoh which helps your case about qibla but lacks Quranic proof. I will revert back to Dr Shabbir’s translation.

6:150 Say, “Come, bring forward your witnesses who can bear witness that God forbade all this. And if they bear witness falsely, do not bear witness with them. You shall not follow the opinions of those who deny Our revelations, nor of those who do not believe in the life to come, and consider others equal with their Lord.
[Nine Commandments … Graven images of the Bible not mentioned]
6:151 Say, "Come, let me convey to you what your Lord has enjoined upon you as a sacred duty: i. Associate none with Him. ii. Honor your parents, treat them kindly and fulfill their needs. iii. Neither kill your children for fear of poverty nor deprive them of proper training and education. We provide for you and for them. (The Divine System will take care of your needs and their needs.) iv. Do not come near immodesty or indecent deeds, whether openly or secretly. v. Do not slay a life - life that God has made sacred - except in the course of justice. All this He has commanded you so that you may use your intelligence and reflect on it with wisdom.” [17:31]
6:152 God commands you further: vi. Do not approach the wealth of the orphan except to improve it until they come of age with full maturity of body and mind. vii. Give full weight and full measure in all your dealings. Uphold justice in all aspects of your life. Our commands are meant to widen your human potential. We do not assign any ‘self’ responsibility beyond its means. viii. And when you voice an opinion, be just, even if it is against a relative. ix. Fulfill your Covenant with God, the unwavering allegiance to the Divine System. This He commands for you to bear in mind. [1:4-5, 9:111]
6:153 And surely, this is My straight way that leads straight unto Me. Follow it, then, and follow not other ways that divert you from the Divine way. These are the Divine commandments ordained for you, so that you may live upright.
6:154 Likewise, We had given Moses the scripture complete for him who would do good to others. We gave him the scripture in detail as guidance and a mercy that they might believe in the meeting of their Lord (and in that all actions are duly recompensed.)

Note the LIKEWISE, WE HAD GIVEN TO MOSES, so he had these ‘signs’, ayats which you say are only frogs and pestilence but every scholar say means verses, revelation, as well as physical signs in nature etc.

Signs of Moses
1, the snake

7.106. (Pharaoh) said: "If indeed thou hast come with a Sign, show it forth,- if thou tellest the truth."
7.107. Then (Moses) threw his rod, and behold! it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)!

2, white hand

108. And he drew out his hand, and behold! it was white to all beholders!

3 and 4, droughts and crop shortage,

7.130. We punished the people of Pharaoh with years (of droughts) and shortness of crops; that they might receive admonition.

5,6,7,8,9 , death, locust, lice, frogs and blood

132. They said (to Moses): "Whatever be the Signs thou bringest, to work therewith thy sorcery on us, we shall never believe in thee.
133. So We sent (plagues) on them: Wholesale death, Locusts, Lice, Frogs, And Blood: Signs openly self-explained: but they were steeped in arrogance,- a people given to sin.

So can we deny that revelation was given to Moses when there are verses that speak of nine other signs? No.

27:8 But when he came close to it, he was called, "Blessed are all who are in and near the Light! And Exalted is God, Lord of the Worlds." (7:137, 28:30)
27:9 "O Moses! It is I, God, the Almighty, the Wise."
27:10 "Now rehearse the truth." When Moses did that, he felt that he had the vibrant Force of truth in hand. Yet he was awe-struck by the uphill task before him, like grabbing a huge python. God said, "O Moses! Do not fear! The Messengers do not fear in My Presence."
[Please note kaannaha jann = As if it was a python, concerning ’Asa or staff. Additional Tasreef: 7:108, 20:17-24, 26:10-15, 26:32-33, 28:31-32]
27:11 "Nor anyone who has replaced evil with good should have any fear. I am Forgiving, Merciful." [26:20, 28:15-17]
27:12 "PRESENT THE TRUTH FROM YOUR HEART, IT WILL SHINE UNBLEMISHED. TAKE THE NINE (OF MY) MESSAGES TO PHARAOH AND HIS PEOPLE, FOR THEY ARE A PEOPLE DRIFTING AWAY FROM THE RIGHT PATH.” [28:32. NINE, AND NOT TEN COMMANDMENTS. 2:83, 17:101, 34:13]
27:13 But when they received Our illuminating messages, they said, "This is obvious magic (a spellbinding deception)."
27:14 And they rejected the messages wrongfully and out of pride, although they were convinced within themselves. Reflect on what happened in the end to the corrupters.

2:82 And those who choose to be graced with belief, and do acts of benevolence; those are the rightful dwellers of Paradise. Therein they will abide.
2:83 (God never promised unconditional favors to any nation, the Children of Israel being no exception.) And remember when We took a Covenant from the Children of Israel,
 “Serve none but God,
 Be generous to your parents,
 And to family and relatives,
 To orphans, widows, and those left without any means of support to make progress in the society,
 To those who have suffered loss of income, the disabled, the needy, and the poor,
 Speak to people kindly,
 And treat them nicely,
 Help establish the Divinely ordained System of Life (Salaat)
 And set up the Economic Order of Zakaat.”
Then, after that, you slid back, except a few of you. And you turn away from these commandments even now.
[Salaat = To follow closely, like a runners-up (Musalli) follows the winning horse (Saabiq) = Follow God’s commands closely. Aqimussallat = Establish the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands. 2:3. Zakaat = Divinely ordained Economic Order in which people work according to their capacity and get compensated according to their needs. It is the System in which all members of the society flourish and, with their basic needs having been met, they are able to rise up on the ladder of self-actualization. The cornerstone of this Economic Order: The God-given natural resources and wealth are the common property of all, and every individual willfully leaves for the welfare of others whatever is over and above his needs. The Central Authority will be responsible for administering and maintaining the Economic Order of Zakaat. 2:219, 22:41, 27:12, 53:39]
Unfortunately, under the influence of fabricated Hadith, most commentators of the Qur’an confuse Zakaat with Sadaqaat. The latter means voluntary charity. See verse 9:60. It describes eight categories of the recipients of charity and not of Zakaat. With the solitary exception of Allama G.A. Parwez, to my knowledge, all commentators fail to notice the word Sadaqaat and somehow ‘misread’ the word Zakaat which is not there in that verse. So powerful is the influence of blind following! The current 2.5% giving of one's wealth and the complex and contradictory details of Fiqh associated with it find no authority in the Qur’an. One example is the flagrant disparity between the compulsory 'charity or poor-due' to be paid by a rich man who possesses gold versus a poor man who possesses some silver. The poor will pay charity on less than one tenth of what the wealthy has! Ihsan = An act of balance = Restoring symmetry and beauty = Social and individual equity = Selfless service = An act of equity. Yateem = Orphan = Who is left alone in the society = Lonely = Without immediate family = Helpless = Derivatively, a widow. Miskeen = The needy poor = One with no means to earn livelihood = The disabled = One whose life has stalled for any reason = Jobless = Truly bankrupt of finances = One whose running business has stalled. 17:23, 29:8, 46:15, 4:36, 6:151, 2:177, 2:215, 17:26]

Note the following rendition by DR Shabbir who knows the meaning of the verses and does not follow them literally; verse 3:7, allegorical and you have not understood the birds in hand has a meaning and is not to be taken literally!

7:106 Pharaoh said, “If you have come with clear evidence, produce it if you are of the truthful.”
7:107 Moses presented his argument that he held fast, with vibrant confidence and logic.
7:108 The strength of his conviction shone bright to those present. [20:17-21]
7:109 The chiefs of Pharaoh's nation said, "This is some knowing wizard!
7:110 It appears to us that Moses, after gaining some following, plans to throw you out of your land.” Said Pharaoh, “Now, what do you advise?”
7:111 (After consulting) they said, "Put him and his brother off for a while and send to the cities men to summon.
7:112 To bring all debaters to your court.” [Saahir from Sihr = Magician, liar, stunningly eloquent, smart poet, deceitful, trickster, cheater, defrauder, dodger, hoaxer, swindler]
7:113 The debaters came to Pharaoh. They said, “Will there be reward for us if we are victors?”
7:114 He answered, “Yes, and you will be among those who are close to me.”
7:115 The debaters said, “O Moses! Either you begin or let us be the first to present our case.”
7:116 Moses asked them to begin. When they began they cast a spell on the people’s eyes, and struck them with awe, and stunned the assembly with their spellbinding eloquence.
7:117 So, We inspired Moses, “Respond with conviction. And then see how it swallows their deceptive rhetoric.” [‘Asaa = Staff = Cane = Strength = Conviction = Authority = Power = Strong logic = Convincing argument]
7:118 The truth prevailed and their arguments were manifestly proven false.
7:119 Thus, they were defeated right there and humiliated.
7:120 The debaters fell down prostrate.
7:121 They were convinced and said, "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds.
7:122 The Lord of Moses and Aaron.”
7:123 Pharaoh got annoyed, "You believe in Him before I give you permission! This is a conspiracy you all have planned in the city to drive out its people (in rebellion). But soon you will know (the consequences).

7:127 The chiefs among Pharaoh's people said, "Will you allow Moses and his people to create disorder in the land, and forsake your rule and your gods?” He said, "We will slay their sons and spare their women. We are in power over them.”
7:128 Moses assured his people, “Seek help in God and patiently persevere. Remember that the earth belongs to God. He grants it as a heritage to His servants according to His laws. And the ultimate end belongs to the upright.” [21:105]
7:129 Fearing persecution they said, "We suffered before you came to us and after you have come to us.” Moses said, “Your Lord will annihilate your enemy, and you will inherit the earth. Then He will see what kind of works you do.”
7:130 The unjust system of Pharaoh and his people began to waver (7:94). When Our requital struck them with famine, and scanty crop (they found themselves ill prepared for the relief efforts). They should have stopped to think.
7:131 (Instead of reflecting and taking corrective action, they sought the easy way out.) All good that came along, they said, “It is from us.” and if an affliction struck them, they blamed it on the bad omen of Moses and his companions. All omens (good or bad consequences of actions) follow Divine laws but most of them know not.
7:132 They kept telling Moses, “Whatever the verses might say, whatever bad omens you could bring, or bewitch us with your logic, we will not believe in you.” (And will not consider reformation).
7:133 Their System was too inefficient to fight off natural calamities, such as, floods, swarms of locusts, and diseases of crops, livestock and humans. These were open signs for them to wake up to reform, but Pharaoh and his chiefs were too arrogant to accept responsibility, and too involved in luxury to take action. They were guilty of misrule.
7:134 (The irrational Egyptians continued to remain sunken in superstition.) Whenever hardship struck, they turned to Moses for prayer stating that God had a pledge with him, and promising that they would believe and let the Children of Israel go with him.
[They did not understand that the pledge of God with His Messengers was only that of obeying His commands and His blessings in return. It did not involve any supernatural phenomena such as miracles]
7:135 When the hardship ran its course according to Our laws, they would break their promise with Moses.
7:136 So, We sent Our requital on them and drowned them in the sea, for they had been denying Our messages and remained heedless.

20:15 Most certainly, the revolution is coming. I have almost kept it hidden. (Through this revolution) every person will get fair compensation of his endeavor.
[This will end the hegemony of Pharaoh and his people. As-Saa’ah frequently denotes the Hour or the Day of Resurrection. But it also means a great revolution. The context of the verses here can only mean revolution]
20:16 Let not those people join your mission who consider it an impossible dream. They accept only what meets their desires. Such people will do more harm than good to your Mission.”
20:17 “What is your strength O Moses?” [Moses was then given complete guidance and strong Logic]
20:18 He said, "Your guidance is my strength. It will help me in all walks of life. I will try to be a competent shepherd for the Israelites, and will use it as the challenges come forth."
20:19 God said, “You are now ready to embark upon your mission.”
20:20 He felt that the message given to him was vibrant with life.
20:21 He said, “Grasp it and fear not. We will keep it evergreen.” Moses was told to hold fast to what he was taught to the extent that it became his first nature; even in frightening situations. And that he would come out unscathed from trying circumstances.
20:22 The light in your heart will shine forth in the power of your presentation of the truth. That will be another sign.
20:23 We will show you some of Our great signs (witness how the strength of the truth can bring about great Revolutions 17:1, 79:20).
20:24 Go to Pharaoh who is transgressing the limits."
20:25 (Moses) said, “My Lord! Grant me a noble heart, tolerance, and courage. [Literal: Expand my chest for me. 94:1]
20:26 AND EASE MY TASK FOR ME. [94:2-5]
20:27 MAKE ME ELOQUENT OF SPEECH.
20:28 That they may take my word to their hearts.
20:29 And appoint for me a deputy from my people.
20:30 My brother Aaron.
20:31 Strengthen me with him.
20:32 Make him my partner in my Mission.
20:33 That both of us strive hard together to manifest Your glory.
20:34 AND WE TAKE EVERY STEP REMEMBERING YOUR COMMANDS.
20:35 (It is a great feeling that) You are watching us every moment."
20:36 God said, “O Moses! All your requests are granted. [10:89]

Does saying ‘let my people go’ require you to be eloquent in speech? Note also, 20:34

28:29 And when Moses had fulfilled his term, and was traveling with his family, he saw a fire on the slope of Mount Toor of Sinai. He said to his family, "Stay here. I have seen a fire. I hope to bring you some information from there, or a burning torch, that you may warm yourselves." [20:10, 27:7]
28:30 But when he came close to it, he was called from the right side of the valley in the blessed field, from the tree, "O Moses! Certainly, I am God, the Lord of the Worlds."
28:31 "Rehearse your supporting power of truth.” Moses felt as if the mission assigned to him was like holding a huge python, and he retreated hesitating. (God said), "O Moses! Draw near (to conviction), and fear not, you are secure from harm." [See 27:10. Ka-annaha jaann = As if it was a python, applies to the living truth. 7:107-108, 20:17-24, 26:32-33, 27:10-12]
28:32 “The guidance enshrined in your heart will shine unblemished when you present it with confidence. And guard your heart against all fear. Then these two shall be your evidences from your Lord to Pharaoh and his chiefs, (the Divine truth and your confident presentation). Surely, they are people drifting away from Moral Values.”
28:33 Moses said, "My Lord! I killed a man among them and I am afraid they will kill me.
28:34 And my brother Aaron – he is far better in speech than I am. Send him, therefore, as a helper, so that he might more eloquently bear witness to my speaking the truth. I am afraid that they will accuse me of lying.”
28:35 God said, "We shall strengthen your abilities with your brother, and We will give both of you power that they will not be able to touch you. With Our signs, you shall triumph; you two as well as those who follow you.”
28:36 But as soon as Moses came to them with Our clear verses, they said, "This is nothing but magic (mysteriously forged lie). And we have never heard such (sermon) from our ancestors."

Messages In This Thread

Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 10:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:27 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 1:14 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 2:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:25 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Friday, 26 May 2017, 3:08 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Ali Syed New Jersey -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 11:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 8:23 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Monday, 29 May 2017, 8:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 30 May 2017, 7:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 4 June 2017, 11:55 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 2:49 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 9:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:35 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 10:21 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 7:56 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:04 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:28 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 18 June 2017, 7:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 19 June 2017, 6:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 2:00 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 8:39 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 9:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 8:54 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 7:59 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 11:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 24 June 2017, 8:48 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 26 June 2017, 9:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 8:40 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 9:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla / Post deleted
Fadil / Dr Shabbir -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 4:31 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
SHabib, Canada -- Sunday, 28 May 2017, 5:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 31 May 2017, 3:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 1 June 2017, 7:38 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:07 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:51 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 3 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:41 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:26 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:43 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:06 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:07 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 10:09 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:42 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:34 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:10 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:50 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:54 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:11 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 8:30 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 11:09 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 9:11 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:29 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:16 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:34 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 8:08 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 9:40 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 9:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 17 June 2017, 3:35 pm