Our Beacon Forum

Re: Salat and Qibla
By:Dawood, USA
Date: Thursday, 8 June 2017, 10:21 pm
In Response To: Re: Salat and Qibla (jawaid ahmed,uk)

You wrote: “Prophetic traditions were what people were saying, practicing, doing ‘Islam’ at that time and Bukhari gathered all the nonsense in book form.”

Read what you write my brother. If people were practicing something, in this case Salat, then Bukhari did not need to write x said, y said, z said, … so on. He could simply go to a mosque, write about what they were doing, how they were doing, and so on, thus providing a complete picture of Salat prevalent at that time. Can you then write the following???

“Also, Bukhari does not have the complete details of the namaz ritual, neither the Quran, so what are you saying where they come from? ...”

1. Why did Bukhari fail to provide you the complete details of Salat despite the fact people were doing it right in front of him?
2. Why would you blame Bukhari in every second post of yours, saying Bukharian…., if Bukhari was merely documenting what people were doing?
3. Obviously, those people did not get these things from Bukhari? Who conspired with whom to the extent that Muslims at the time of Bukhari east to west, north to south, en masse were practicing something which prophet did not sanction? And as per your claim, it is not in the Quran?
4. Is mere 200 years enough time to completely derail Quranic Salat with man made Salat, despite the fact Quran was intact with all of them?
5. If Brother Jawaid and his likes, despite Arabic not being their language, can figure out 1200 years later as to what is Quranic Salat, Millions of them at the time of Bukhari could not do it? What evidence do you have?

You wrote: “Stoning to death for adultery, murder of apostates, marrying children, triple talaq, dirtying women during periods, killing women and children of enemy etc etc etc etc are all in hadith and all changed from what is in the Quran.”

Irrelevant stuff. We are discussing Salat and Qibla, and you are bringing other irrelevant stuff here. Please tell me about Salat and Qibla. What was it, how it got derailed at the time of Bukhari?

Bring me some documented cases in which some people were stoned to death for adultery during the time of Bukhari and he mentioned such case(s)?

You wrote: “you need to answer this question. Where are the complete details of the namaz ritual? Not in Quran, not in Bukhari. I will answer; they are handed down by our ancestors without Quranic authority and followed by those who follow their devoid of wisdom ancestors.”

Brother, you even cannot answer questions related to 2:142 about Qibla, how on earth you can understand Salat from Quran. Let me tell you, Quran and its verses are no authority for you, you are using Quran as an excuse and that too lamely. You want us to believe in the fiction prophet was not doing salat as people do, rather he was busy in setting up councils, parliaments, … and that was salat? Absolute nonsense.

You think, this Quran just descended to you and was not available to our ancestors? Those who were instrumental in writing it, making copies of it, and then mass circulating it, yet they went off rails despite the Quran, but you are guided with the Quran 1400 years later? Give us a break, please.

You wrote: “I just told you that there are no complete details of the namaz performed today on the Quran or Bukhari. If there was unanimity amongst all the sects, including the shia, then the case may be made for namaz but there is none and so the differences prove my case not yours.”

I am sure you would have trashed it even if they had uniformity all across because it still had to be transmitted from generation to generation and that is not in the Quran. At the end of Ramadan, all Muslims celebrate Eid. Is it in Islam? Did prophet did it? Yes, No?

I will take up what is in the Quran about Salat and what is not as we go forward.

You wrote: “We have gone over this in previous posts and you see fixed times for repeating the words of Allah back to Him, asking Him to show you the straight path [when He has shown you the straight path with the Quran], physically bending and then getting up, job done, salat over and getting on with your life. Your salat is restricted to fixed times by your understanding because having fixed times MANDATES that salat can only be done at these fixed times if you take fixed times as true. Do you understand this?”

Bring your evidence from the Quran where it says, “salat is get the job done and it is over?” You have no idea about the Quranic salat. You are running with what it should be rather what it is. Salat is at fixed times and its purpose is remembrance of God and His commands. Who said, when and where “repeating the words back to Allah" is Salat?

You wrote: “Parwez under salat heading: Some specific timings are also mentioned in the Quran. VERSE (17/78) DIRECTS THE MOMINEEN TO ESTABLISH SAL'AT FROM EARLY MORNING TILL LATE NIGHT. IN THIS VERSE THE WORD "DALOOK" HAS BEEN USED WHICH MEANS FROM MORNING TILL EVENING, thereby denying the earlier superstition that certain times of the day are good or bad. It is further explained in verse (11/114) that Sal'at be established on the two ends of the day and early hours of night. Verses (20/130) and (50/39) mention about Hamd before sunrise and sunset and also late night when stars start fading (52/49).”

When I get to the topic with respect to timings of Salat, I will then inform you what Parwez said and what he did not. Read him in Urdu to comprehend him, translations are translations.

You said: “MY SALAT IS AS THOSE IN THE HEAVENS INCLUDING THE BIRDS WHO FOLLOW THEIR PROGRAMMING, MINE IS THE QURAN, AND IS 24/7.”

Great! You are better than me. Do you do ablution or stay in Wudu 24/7?

You wrote: “you have not understood the concept of salat so you will never move forward.”

LoL. Appreciation is mutual.

You wrote: “If we take literal meaning then the Quran mentions chins on ground, not forehead, and nowhere does it say that sujood is putting heads on ground.
17:107 Say, "Believe in it or do not believe in it." Those who possess knowledge from the previous scriptures, when it is recited to them, they fall down to their chins, prostrating." [Zaqan = Chin, and not face]”

No, Quran does not mention “chins on ground”, rather it is your mistranslation.

17:107: Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before it - when it is recited to them, they fall down with their chins to the ground (yakhirrūna lil'adhqāni), prostratating (sujjadan).”

The phrase “yakhirrūna lil'adhqāni” is figurative speech and is translated by Lane p. 968, as “they fell down prostrate, with their chins to the ground”. Similarly, p. 698, Lughat by Parwez: Figuratively, Azqan is used for face, and in phrase “yakhirrūna lil'adhqāni Sujjadan” means to fall on the face on ground.

In fact, the last word “sujjadan” is clearly indicating what they were doing. It is language and if you want to get anything from the Quran, respect the language and its grammatical structure.

You wrote: Find me the sujood verse which proves the namaz prostration.

Let me get to that point. You have mostly knee-jerked and trivial questions I am constrained to respond.

You wrote: “When you learn Arabic you go to a dictionary and see what an Arabic word means so you can understand the Quran. So you make the dictionary a criterion to understand the Book of Allah. I see nothing wrong in reading any scholar, Parwez included, and understanding the Quran based on what makes sense to me.”

Yes, I do the same thing. But words alone are not enough, one has to see how these words are placed in a sentence, in a paragraph. How these words and phrases fit within a context. I see you taking bits and pieces mostly from allegorical verses and then bending clear, Mubeen verses around those bits and pieces. This approach is completely wrong. As an example, you take allegorical “birds in flight” and “salat” and bend everything around it? This is completely NONSENSE. Desist from such destructive practices.

Best Regards
dawood

Messages In This Thread

Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 10:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:27 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 1:14 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 2:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:25 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Friday, 26 May 2017, 3:08 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Ali Syed New Jersey -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 11:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 8:23 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Monday, 29 May 2017, 8:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 30 May 2017, 7:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 4 June 2017, 11:55 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 2:49 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 9:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:35 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 10:21 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 7:56 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:04 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:28 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 18 June 2017, 7:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 19 June 2017, 6:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 2:00 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 8:39 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 9:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 8:54 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 7:59 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 11:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 24 June 2017, 8:48 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 26 June 2017, 9:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 8:40 am
Re: Salat and Qibla / Post deleted
Fadil / Dr Shabbir -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 4:31 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
SHabib, Canada -- Sunday, 28 May 2017, 5:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 31 May 2017, 3:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 1 June 2017, 7:38 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:07 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:51 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 3 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:41 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:26 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:43 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:06 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:07 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 10:09 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:42 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:34 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:10 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:50 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:54 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:11 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 8:30 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 11:09 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 9:11 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:29 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:16 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:34 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 8:08 pm
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jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 9:40 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 9:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 17 June 2017, 3:35 pm