Our Beacon Forum

Re: Salat and Qibla
By:jawaid ahmed,uk
Date: Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:35 am
In Response To: Re: Salat and Qibla (Dawood, USA)

Dawood:
No, Bukhari did not write “what the muslims were doing,” rather he wrote what some Muslims were stating to be prophetic traditions.

Answer:
Prophetic traditions were what people were saying, practicing, doing ‘Islam’ at that time and Bukhari gathered all the nonsense in book form.

Dawood:
Since you already know that “it had already been changed,” please bring in some evidence to show when and how it had changed? Who conspired with whom to do it? What is your evidence that it had already been changed

Answer:
Stoning to death for adultery, murder of apostates, marrying children, triple talaq, dirtying women during periods, killing women and children of enemy etc etc etc etc are all in hadith and all changed from what is in the Quran.
This is another childish question when you know very well what the Quran says and what the hadith has blatantly contradicted/overruled it with fairy tale sunnahs.

Dawood:
You stated above, (i) Bukhari wrote what Muslims were doing, (ii) it had already been changed. Don’t you think if (i) and (ii) are correct, then Bukhari must have had all the details related to the Nimaz ritual at that time? Should you not ask why Bukhari did not have all the details, despite Muslims doing ritual salat (though changed as you claim) back then and Bukhari writing about it?

Answer: you need to answer this question. Where are the complete details of the namaz ritual? Not in Quran, not in Bukhari. I will answer; they are handed down by our ancestors without Quranic authority and followed by those who follow their devoid of wisdom ancestors:

2:170 When it is said to them, "Follow what God has revealed", they say, "Nay! We will follow the ways of our ancestors.” What! Even though their ancestors (and the ancient Imams) were lacking in understanding and were not rightly guided?

Dawood:
You may want to take Bukhari’s details (few as you claim they are), compare and contrast them with what people are doing today in their prayers? If you find major differences in the written record of Bukhari and today’s practices, then perhaps you have a case to begin with, else you have no ground to state “it had already been changed.”

Answer: I just told you that there are no complete details of the namaz performed today on the Quran or Bukhari. If there was unanimity amongst all the sects, including the shia, then the case may be made for namaz but there is none and so the differences prove my case not yours.

Dawwod:
“neither the Quran” statement is interesting. In Quran, God makes Salat mandatory at fixed times for Muslims. He orders this nearly 7 dozen times, yet God forgets to tell His messenger what is Salat and how he is supposed to do it? Is that the claim?

Answer: We have gone over this in previous posts and you see fixed times for repeating the words of Allah back to Him, asking Him to show you the straight path [when He has shown you the straight path with the Quran], physically bending and then getting up, job done, salat over and getting on with your life. Your salat is restricted to fixed times by your understanding because having fixed times MANDATES that salat can only be done at these fixed times if you take fixed times as true. Do you understand this?

Parwez under salat heading: Some specific timings are also mentioned in the Quran. VERSE (17/78) DIRECTS THE MOMINEEN TO ESTABLISH SAL'AT FROM EARLY MORNING TILL LATE NIGHT. IN THIS VERSE THE WORD "DALOOK" HAS BEEN USED WHICH MEANS FROM MORNING TILL EVENING, thereby denying the earlier superstition that certain times of the day are good or bad. It is further explained in verse (11/114) that Sal'at be established on the two ends of the day and early hours of night. Verses (20/130) and (50/39) mention about Hamd before sunrise and sunset and also late night when stars start fading (52/49).

MY SALAT IS AS THOSE IN THE HEAVENS INCLUDING THE BIRDS WHO FOLLOW THEIR PROGRAMMING, MINE IS THE QURAN, AND IS 24/7.

24:41 Do you not realize that God, He is the One Whom all beings in the heavens and earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their Salaat and Tasbeeh (mission and strife). God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.
[All creatures know their Salaat, their inborn Divinely programmed instincts. So, they can automatically strive (do their Tasbeeh) in the best way. But humans are not programmed with such inborn instincts. Given free will, they must do their Salaat by following the revealed guidance and thus strive (do Tasbeeh) in the best way]

Dawood:
When we go forward with this discussion, we will see what mandated Salat.

Answer: you have not understood the concept of salat so you will never move forward.

 Salaat = To follow closely, like a runners-up (Musalli) follows the winning horse (Saabiq) = To follow Divine Commands closely.
 Aqimussallat = Establish the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands.

Dawood:
Who said Sujood is proving the nimaz? Show me how Sujood done in Nimaz is different than the “physical” sujood mentioned in Quran?

Answer: If we take literal meaning then the Quran mentions chins on ground, not forehead, and nowhere does it say that sujood is putting heads on ground.
17:107 Say, "Believe in it or do not believe in it." Those who possess knowledge from the previous scriptures, when it is recited to them, they fall down to their chins, prostrating." [Zaqan = Chin, and not face]

Find me the sujood verse which proves the namaz prostration.

Dawood:
You wrote: “Parwez, repeated numerous times before, says do the following of Allah's commands, get the results of these actions, and then you may bow down physically to express yourself towards the Creator. The first thing is lacking in the namaz.”
First, where is this “and then you may bow down physically….” in Parwez’s writings? Please bring in the evidence from his writings.

Answer; Parwez under salat in his lughat
f. About recitation during Sal'at, the Quran says that you should understand as to what you are reciting (4/43) and do not recite loudly or in silence but adopt a course in between.

The above verses explain that the meaning of Sal'at encompasses the congregational prayers as well. Wherever Aqeem-us-Sal'at is referred to, it means the establishment of the whole system, the obedience to the Laws of Allah, and the observance of all the duties expected of a Momin. At other places, it also refers to the offering of prayers as well other duties which are a part of the whole system. For this distinction one has to see the whole verse and the context in which it is brought. Similarly the word Musalleen is referred to those persons who are at the height of dignity ( 70/22-35).

Dawood:
Second, should Parwez’s writings, awesome as they are, be the criterion or the book of Allah to conclude something? God states, so to speak, put the horses in front of the cart, you state it otherwise? When God says, Salat is for His remembrance, you disagree with it and bring your own purpose. Are you following God’s verses or your desires?

Answer: When you learn Arabic you go to a dictionary and see what an Arabic word means so you can understand the Quran. So you make the dictionary a criterion to understand the Book of Allah. I see nothing wrong in reading any scholar, Parwez included, and understanding the Quran based on what makes sense to me.

Messages In This Thread

Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 10:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:27 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 1:14 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 2:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:25 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Friday, 26 May 2017, 3:08 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Ali Syed New Jersey -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 11:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 8:23 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Monday, 29 May 2017, 8:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 30 May 2017, 7:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 4 June 2017, 11:55 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 2:49 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 9:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:35 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 10:21 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 7:56 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:04 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:28 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 18 June 2017, 7:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 19 June 2017, 6:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 2:00 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 8:39 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 9:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 8:54 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 7:59 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 11:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 24 June 2017, 8:48 am
Re: Salat and Qibla / Post deleted
Fadil / Dr Shabbir -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 4:31 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
SHabib, Canada -- Sunday, 28 May 2017, 5:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 31 May 2017, 3:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 1 June 2017, 7:38 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:07 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:51 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 3 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:41 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:26 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:43 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:06 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:07 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 10:09 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:42 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:34 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:10 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:50 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:54 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:11 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 8:30 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 11:09 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 9:11 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:29 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:16 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:34 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 8:08 pm
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jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 9:40 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 9:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 17 June 2017, 3:35 pm