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Re: Salat and Qibla
By:Dawood, USA
Date: Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:41 pm
In Response To: Re: Salat and Qibla (jawaid ahmed,uk)

You wrote: “Moses had revelation from Allah and that is the truth he spread. It is simple to understand.”

Earlier you wrote: “In other words, the ‘direction’ they needed guidance from is each home where the followers of Moses lived.”

Brother, as usual, you are never specific unless cornered. Yes, of course “revelation=truth,” but what were those revelations? It is clear you are just shooting left and right without any idea.

Now put the two above statements of yours together. If Moses came with revelations from God, were the followers of Moses supposed to get the directions from Moses or from their houses? You are improvising as you go, as usual. So sad to see you wandering in search of your extra-Quranic thoughts!

Let me bring some light from the Quran that may help. The truth Moses brought to Pharaoh and his people is mentioned very clearly in 10:75, “biāyātinā = Our signs” , and in 7:105 “bibayyinatin = Clear sign.” You do not need directions from any house to see and perceive the Truth/Signs Moses brought. Rather people saw those signs and then some believed in Moses and his Lord. In response to this Pharaoh and his elites increased the persecution of the believers. At this Moses said to his followers in 7:128: is'taʿīnū bil-lahi wa-iṣ'birū = Seek help from Allah and be patient/persevere”. How did they seek help from Allah and persevere? It was to be through “Salat” by the people of Moses. It was exactly the same during the time of prophet Muhammad in 2:153. Now you see, tasreef-ul-ayaat make it so simple.

You wrote: “You completely miss the point as we live in societies that need to be governed by Quranic law so we create and turn to Quranic councils and parliaments for implementing these in our lives and as circumstances change.”

I would readily agree as and when I have missed the point. What you need to do is bring logic and reasoning based on the verses of the Quran. Make verses as the basis of this reasoning, not other way around. Quranic councils and parliaments, if I can call such names, are established and governed by individuals. All over the world, including so called Muslim countries, such institutions exist in abundance. What is missing is the Quranic character of those who run these institutions. Quran is fundamentally geared to impart this character to individuals who would ultimately go on to these institutions. To this end, Salat plays a fundamental rule in shaping this character, through “dhikr of Allah” = remembering Him and His commands in all and every sphere of life.

You wrote: “You have never understood the society that the Messenger created in Medina, the reason why he had to leave Mecca so you ‘LOL’ everything! According to your ‘Quranic’ understanding, there would have been no reason to leave Mecca, just do the ritual praying and Allah will sweep away the problems. My turn for LOL!”

First, Ok, you give me an example why he left Mecca? Bring examples from the verses of the Quran without unwarranted erroneous extrapolations?

Second, this is your complete misunderstanding “just do the ritual praying and Allah will sweep away the problems.” In the fight between the right (Haq) and the wrong (Baatil), salat is the recipe to keep individuals focused, patient, and persevered. That is why Moses asking his followers “seek help of God and persevere,” in 7:128 and 10:87, and God asking Muslims to do the same via Salat in 2:153.

You wrote: “The Messenger had set up an Islamic society in Medina, so just like the homes of Moses, he made this the Qibla for the people until they had reached sufficient numbers to spread out and re-make the Kaaba, established by Abraham, as a universal centre, Qibla for mankind. Please note the ideocracy of the Messenger ‘praying’ towards Jerusalem which you advocate. Please note the purpose of the Messenger was to head the state, even though they had the Quran so your ‘lolling’ over my qibla parliaments shows a deep lack of understanding about what the central qibla is for.”

These thoughts need in depth and detail analysis for here lies quite a few contradictions.

Earlier you wrote: “Qibla means the direction we should turn to in order to get our ideology, Islam, as and when we need. The Qibla of justice is the courtroom, the Qibla of making laws is the parliament, the Qibla of international relations is the UN; BUT NOBODY BOWS DOWN TO THESE IN ORDER TO GET THESE THINGS DONE!”

So from the above two responses of yours, one infers: prophet’s society in Medina = the Qibla for Muslims. As per your understanding, this society must have had a courtroom, a council, a parliament, etc. It is obvious and I hope you agree with me that this society was set up according to the Quranic revelations until that time. On the other hand, Masjid Alharam is under the de facto control of the pagans of Mecca, and thus its all functions and institutions were non-Quranic. Isn’t it?

1. Now, my brother, is it conceivable that God would ask Prophet to turn away from this Qibla in Medina to a non-Quranic society governed and controlled by pagan Arabs in Mecca, where all courtrooms, councils, parliaments are set up against the Quran? Such erroneous thoughts and notions are obviously unquranic and based on your preconceived notions as to what the Qibla should be as per your desire, rather what it is/was during the time of prophet. This is enough to demolish your non-quranic improvisations.

2. Refer to 2:142-4. How did the fools know that Muslims have changed their Qibla? Did they see Muslims turning away from the courts and councils set up by the “prophet’s society in Medina”? But instead, now the people are approaching the Qibla (council/parliament/courts) set up by pagan-held Majid Alharam? Did they observe Muslims taking their directions “to get our ideology, Islam, as and when we need” from pagan-held Masjid Alharam? You are thoroughly confused, my brother.

3. Was Prohet’s society a Qibla for Muslims not living in Medina? But when the command came to change the Qibla to Masjid Alharam, you think they started getting the instructions from pagan-run Masjid Alharam instead of Quran and Prophet?

4. How did you come to know that the messenger has set up an Islamic society in Medina? Quran did not mention in its verses about such a society? So it is obvious that this knowledge of yours is obtained via history. Same history that you mock as “a lie of history … 200-300 years” removed from prophet’s time? This is cherry-picking that too out of season.

5. However, your observation of “The Messenger had set up an Islamic society in Medina” has validated my earlier point that these verses were revealed in Medina. Thus, the same written in history about these verses is true, and your claim “as no-one knows when and where each verse was revealed” is not tenable.

I can go on and on, the fact is that your continuous somersault here, another one there, and improvisation here and there, are all based on preconceived notions “no rituals in Quran.” In order to cement this notion, you take bits and pieces here and there from verses and run with these painting erroneous picture wherever your brush touches the sublime Quran.

After a long detour, lets get back to the verses. Seen in the context from 2:142, translations are very simple and logical. You don’t need to bring in load of extraneous words and phrases which verses in question don’t support. Comments in square brackets [] are from me.

[2:142-4]: The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face? [First change of Qibla?] …. And not We made the qiblah you were on except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. [the purpose of the change of Qibla] …. We have certainly seen the turning of your face, (O Muhammad), toward the heaven [Prophet’s eagerness and pleading with God], and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased [God’s assurance to him]. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it. [second switch of Qibla for all times]...”

See how simple it is. It is fully inline with the Arabic words and grammar. No need to improvise anything. But, it cannot justify your notions "no ritual in Quran".

Best Regards

Dawood

Messages In This Thread

Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 10:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:27 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 1:14 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 2:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:25 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Friday, 26 May 2017, 3:08 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Ali Syed New Jersey -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 11:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 8:23 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Monday, 29 May 2017, 8:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 30 May 2017, 7:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 4 June 2017, 11:55 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 2:49 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 9:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:35 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 10:21 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 7:56 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:04 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:28 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 18 June 2017, 7:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 19 June 2017, 6:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 2:00 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 8:39 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 9:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 8:54 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 7:59 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 11:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 24 June 2017, 8:48 am
Re: Salat and Qibla / Post deleted
Fadil / Dr Shabbir -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 4:31 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
SHabib, Canada -- Sunday, 28 May 2017, 5:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 31 May 2017, 3:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 1 June 2017, 7:38 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:07 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:51 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 3 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:41 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:26 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:43 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:06 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:07 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 10:09 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:42 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:34 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:10 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:50 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:54 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:11 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 8:30 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 11:09 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 9:11 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:29 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:16 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:34 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 8:08 pm
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jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 9:40 am
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Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 9:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 17 June 2017, 3:35 pm