Our Beacon Forum

Re: Salat and Qibla
By:Yusuf, Texas
Date: Sunday, 4 June 2017, 11:55 pm
In Response To: Re: Salat and Qibla (Dawood, USA)

Dear brother,
You complain about not getting the math right but in your research you seem to refer and stress on all literal translations and resources and overlook QXP by Dr Shabbir with its Tasreef approach.

Translations will never be able to capture the essence of the message of the Quran. You will always remain lost and keep struggling and leaning towards outside sources (Bukhari, Tabari and ilk) for help. Followers of literal translations will continue struggling in their understanding especially touchy subjects like slavery, child marriage, wife beating, Jesus ascension to heaven, Isra’wal Meraj, women’s rights, shaving heads during hajj, etc.

18:54 Indeed, for the benefit of mankind We use Tasreef to explain the Qur'an from various vantage points. However, man, above all other imperfections, is given to contention.

The Qur’an can only be interpreted given an accurate understanding of the Arabic idiom in the Prophet’s time. Every individual Muslim has the right not only of a literal but also of a symbolic and analytical interpretation. The bases of interpretation are the underlying principles (Usool), and not the minutiae or details (Furoo) derived therefrom or the verses in the Qur’an referring to specific historical situations.

Lughat-ul-Quran is a dictionary and that’s what all it is! It will provide you with both literal and when applicable, figurative meanings. It also provides you how the words and understanding are used in verses with some having literal meanings where it should have been figurative –such example are found in - falling on face versus being humble, turn your faces towards versus focus your mind/attention/mission, and such.

You quoted Allama Parwez in Lughat on “Urfe-Aam (typical day-to-day usage) it is the place towards which one faces during Namaz…”
You are cherry-picking extracts from the Lughat to fit your understanding in an attempt to justify your points, while ignoring other references. The Lughat, on the contrary, declares: “This shows that qiblah is actually the symbol of a way of life or Deen and following the qiblah means to follow a particular way of life.”

‘Typical day-to-day’ is not what the Quran is directing us to do. It is asking to remain focused perpetually on the mission and goal of uniting mankind by following the Divine commands of the Quran.
Salat is not the Persian Namaz or any physical action of worship that you are trying to rationalize that Muslims are required to perform facing the Ka’bah. Salat is following the divine teachings and commands of the Quran, and remaining focused (Qibla) towards the central goal of unity of mankind. The symbol that represents this unity is Ka’bah, as it was first erected by Ibrahim (s) and Ismaeel (S).

Now, let’s take a look at some very interesting verses. It talks about those idolators, who while in their state of idolatry, nevertheless perform Salat and give Zakat:

QXP
9:11 If they mend their ways, (and as law-abiding citizens), help consolidate the Divine System (SALAT), and the Economic Order of Zakaat, then they are your brothers and sisters in DEEN. Thus We explain Our Messages for those who wish to learn.
[The usual translation of this verse conveys the meaning that if they start praying five times a day and give 2.5% poor-due per year, then they are your brothers and sisters in religion. This interpretation goes directly against the all-encompassing Ordinance of God that there is no compulsion or coercion in Deen Islam. 2:256. DEEN = Way of life = Divinely ordained System of life]

9:12 If they keep breaking their pledges after their treaty, and assail your System, then fight the chiefs of the disbelievers. They have no respect for their binding oaths. This action will help restrain them from aggression.

In contrast to your understanding of the Salat being namaz or some kind of a physical action of worship facing Ka’bah, verse 9:11 refers to the idolators who follow, comply, and even strengthen the establishment of Divine Orders. One recent example is Rana Bhagwandas, former Chief Justice of Pakistan. He was indeed a brother to Muslims in Pakistan in establishing Salat as per 9:11, but I strongly doubt if he had been praying Namaz facing Ka’bah in his state of idolatry, as per your understanding.

22:26 Behold! We pointed the site of the Sacred House, Ka'bah, to Abraham, saying, 'Associate none with Me, and keep My House clean of human dogmas for those whose Divine Ideology of Monotheism will revolve around this Center for all mankind. Train the visitors to stand up for truth, and bow to and fully submit before Divine Commands.' [2:125, 2:197, 3:95-97, 22:28-29]

Getting back to 2:142, you have asked:

[2:142]: The foolish (of little understanding) among the people will say, "What has turned THEM away from their qiblah, they were upon?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path."

The above has two parts. In part (i), God is predicting that some people of little understanding will say “What has turned THEM away from their qiblah, they were upon?" Please answer the following questions related to this and quote some verses in support of your answer.

1. Who are the people mentioned “THEM” in the quoted clause (i)? Are these (a) Jews, (b) Christians, (c) Muslims, (d) Other misc. non-believers?
Answer: C.

2. Please explain your choice above. Why did you choose the group (a or b or c or d) you chose? In other words, what led you to this choice?
Answer: Qur'an invites all mankind to become one community so that they may all journey through life in blissful honor and security. They are directed not to follow the ways (Qibla) of the ignorant.

3. Name the Qibla as a symbol of Deen referred to in (i) above?
The Qiblah as a symbol of the disbelieving people would be facing Jerusalem for the Jews (see my prior in this thread about facing Jerusalem).

For the following questions:
4. Were the people referred “THEM” in 2:142 doing something physical that people could see with respect to the Qibla or being on the Qibla? OR
5. They (THEM) were looking up to the Qibla as a symbol of their Deen?
6. Did God inform us in the Quran when/where His prediction of “turned THEM away from their Qibla” was realized?

Br Jawaid has already provided the best answer in this thread to your questions above:
“The Messenger had set up an Islamic society in Medina, so just like the homes of Moses, he made this the Qibla for the people until they had reached sufficient numbers to spread out and re-make the Kaaba, established by Abraham, as a universal centre, Qibla for mankind. Please note the ideocracy of the Messenger ‘praying’ towards Jerusalem which you advocate. Please note the purpose of the Messenger was to head the state, even though they had the Quran…”

QXP
2:142 Those of little understanding among people say, 'What has turned them from the Qiblah they (Jews) used to follow? Say, 'Unto God belongs the East and the West. He guides to the straight path whoever wills (to be guided).'
[Qiblah = Center of devotion = Symbol of uniform Ideology = Center for the unity of mankind = Deen = System of Life. The Children of Israel have considered Jerusalem as their Center of devotion but the Jews always believed in a tribal god and, hence, a tribal center. But God is the Lord of all humanity. He makes no distinction between Jews and Gentiles. And the Qur'an invites all mankind to become one community. His Final Message is not confined to a particular tribe, nation or group of people. Ka'bah, the first House of Monotheism, was erected by Abraham in Makkah. It has always been the Qiblah for all humanity. 2:213, 3:96, 4:170, 6:91-92, 7:158, 10:19, 12:104, 21:107, 22:49, 34:28, 38:87, 57:25, 114:1]

Lastly, you mentioned:
“Dear brother, Bukhari was born at the end of 2nd century AH, he collected and wrote whatever somewhere during the first half of 3rd century AH. His work was most likely not available in book form until at least a century later. You want me to believe that Bukhari was so influential that Muslims from East to West and North to South en masse subverted Quranic text according to Bukhari’s collection? I am speechless at such thoughts and impossible inferences.”

On Bukhari, subversions and conspiracies of such magnitude and enormity had to be state-sponsored in order to get hold of the masses. Do you need to be reminded of the Pauline doctrine, of the “Nicene Creed”? The bishops at Nicea in 325CE voted to make the full deity of Christ as the accepted position of the church, and it was enforced by the Roman Emperor Constantine. That moment marked the birth of trinitarianism. What makes you think it would not have been possible to canonize Namaz based on the tales spun by Bukhari?

What you need is an urgent refresher on some of the books in the QXP library:
- The Criminals of Islam – By Dr Shabbir Ahmed
- ISLAM: THE TRUE HISTORY AND FALSE BELIEFS – By Dr Shabbir Ahmed
- DUAL ISLAM

You will be amazed at the enlightenment that will drag you out of your stunted understanding of hadith-tainted literal translations of Quran!

Messages In This Thread

Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 10:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:27 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 1:14 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 2:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:25 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Friday, 26 May 2017, 3:08 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Ali Syed New Jersey -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 11:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 8:23 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Monday, 29 May 2017, 8:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 30 May 2017, 7:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 4 June 2017, 11:55 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 2:49 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 9:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:35 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 10:21 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 7:56 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:04 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:28 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 18 June 2017, 7:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 19 June 2017, 6:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 2:00 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 8:39 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 9:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 8:54 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 7:59 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 11:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 24 June 2017, 8:48 am
Re: Salat and Qibla / Post deleted
Fadil / Dr Shabbir -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 4:31 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
SHabib, Canada -- Sunday, 28 May 2017, 5:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 31 May 2017, 3:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 1 June 2017, 7:38 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:07 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:51 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 3 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:41 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:26 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:43 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:06 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:07 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 10:09 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:42 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:34 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:10 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:50 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:54 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:11 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 8:30 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 11:09 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 9:11 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:29 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:16 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:34 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 8:08 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 9:40 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 9:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 17 June 2017, 3:35 pm