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Re: Salat and Qibla
By:Dawood, USA
Date: Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:51 pm
In Response To: Re: Salat and Qibla (jawaid ahmed,uk)

Jawaid Bhai, your responses are like running comedy. Thank you for sharing.

You wrote: “The story goes that the Messenger and his followers used to pray towards Jerusalem and then wahi came to change this to the Kaaba. Why would he be praying towards Jerusalem? Were the pagan Arabs in the habit of doing so?”

If “something” given in Quran is made a story, would that “something” be discarded or given new meanings because it has been made a story elsewhere? Is this the criterion or Quran is the criterion?

Quran did not mention as to which direction was he praying, nor it is needed. It was relevant only for the brief time God intended it to be and once that purpose was achieved, the Qibla stood restored for ALL MUSLIMS ALL TIMES. What was that purpose? 2:143: “… And not We made the Qibla you were upon, except to make evident who follows the messenger from the one who turns back on his heels…”

How is the “pagan Arabs” stuff related here? When the prophet received first wahi, he became a Muslim, no more a pagan. Further, Medina where these verses were revealed was inhabited by many Jews and Christians, see the context leading up to 2:143.

You wrote: “Did the Messenger have ‘wahi’ saying do this which was later abrogated or ‘removed’ from the Quran?”

This question is based on notions outside the Quran. This outside notion is being used to give new meanings or discard what is inside the Quran. It is more or less an established fact that prophet stayed in Mecca for about 13 years or so, and then about 10 years in Medina. Verses of salat are spread over everywhere in Quran including Meccan period. Did you find any verse telling the prophet to face Ka’ba or Masjid Alharam during his Meccan stay? None. Was the prophet Qibla-less during this period since you don’t find a verse directing him toward Masjid Alharam?

There are more than 7 dozen verses on Salat/prayers, but you refused to acknowledge salat being a physical action because these actions are not covered in one single verse like wudu. Thus, supposed absence of such a single verse became an excuse to give new meanings to Salat. Similarly, absence of a verse telling the prophet to pray for some limited period in a particular direction is now being used as an excuse to give new meanings to Qibla. This is pitiful.

You wrote: “If we look in detail at 10:87 which mentions Qibla we see a Messenger of Allah delivering the truth and some opposing him. Moses did not reveal the truth and then do a runner out of Egypt but stayed there and built up a group of followers who followed the truth. The idea was to get these followers to educate themselves and others, put into practice and become an example of the truth they had, showing the difference between this and what pharaoh had to offer. With this in place, they would turn their homes into a place where they AND OTHERS WOULD AND COULD TURN TO to learn, know and put into practice the truth. In other words, the ‘direction’ they needed guidance from is each home where the followers of Moses lived. … It makes no sense to think that Qibla in this case means a direction to pray in.”

First, provide me an example of what “the truth” was that Moses came with and delivered to his followers they were supposed to practice?

second, a nation is under slavery of a kind world might have not seen since then, and you are telling me people had a choice to choose after seeing “the difference between this and what pharaoh had to offer”? And you think Moses, his companions, benign pharaoh and his chiefs were living in post-modern world, everyone having great time and choice? Delusional thoughts!

This is the most convoluted sentence: “In other words, the ‘direction’ they needed guidance from is each home where the followers of Moses lived.” You mean their homes will provide them the “guidance”? O, my God, you have no idea what are you talking about!!!!

Your going neither here nor there makes no sense, otherwise, praying is the only sensible, suitable, and appropriate choice in the context, I showed in my lead post in this thread.

You wrote: “… the pointless, repeat the Quran verses back to Allah, ritual namaz prayers you seem to advocate…”

Where did I advocate “repeat the Quran verses back to Allah”? You have not even understood or does not want to understand the Quranic purpose of Salat, and coming with your wild assertions against me as well as the Book?

You wrote: “The Jews may still bow towards Jerusalem in prayer, no ‘Temple’, and they discard a portion of their food which is meant to be given to the high priests, both rituals which have no meaning.”

Irrelevant stuff.

You wrote: “Salat means following closely the commands of Allah.”

God says in Quran, Salat is for Dhikr (remembrance) of Allah or means to achieve God’s remembrance. Quran has a different word Taqwa for following God's command. You have your own definition. Are you advocating Quran or your desires?

You wrote: “Qibla means the direction we should turn to in order to get our ideology, Islam, as and when we need.”

LoL. God says Islam was complete during the time of prophet. It was practically lived by the prophet. His companions saw him practicing it and they did with him. It is now contained in the Book, Quran. You want to look some other directions to get “ideology, Islam as and when needed” Where in Quran God tells you this? You think there is a depository in which “ideology, Islam” is preserved and by turning to this depository you can get the “ideology, Islam as and when needed”? How ridiculous you sound brother Jawaid. Are you really thinking and pondering before writing such stuff?

You wrote: “The Qibla of justice is the courtroom, the Qibla of making laws is the parliament, the Qibla of international relations is the UN; BUT NOBODY BOWS DOWN TO THESE IN ORDER TO GET THESE THINGS DONE!”

LoLX10. Indeed, you have all sorts of Qiblas all over the world, London, Paris, Washington, Riyadh, and counting, except the one God’s designated Qibla Masjid Alharam for Muslims. Yet, you claim to follow the Book? Great Allama Iqbal comes to mind.

Ye Aik Sajda Jise Tu Garan Samajhta Hai
Hazar Sajde Se Deta Hai Admi Ko Nijat!

Prostration ’fore God you presume as irksome, tedious, burden great;
But mind, this homage sets you free from bonds of men, of might who prate!

Once again, let us get back to the relevant verses. I asked you some questions previously in this thread?

Now I am using 2:144 as you posted.

2:144 We have seen your eagerness (O Messenger), therefore, We now make you turn to the Qiblah that is dear to you (for its Sublime objective). Hence, keep your Purpose focused on the Masjid of Security, and all of you believers, wherever you are, keep your Purpose focused toward it. And indeed, those who have been given the Scripture before know that this (Revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what they do.

Please ask yourself some questions and then seek the right answers from the Book.

1. What was the messenger “eager” about and why?

2. Was prophet already on the Qibla until 2:144? Yes, No?

3. If Yes to #2, what was the name of this Qibla?

4. If Yes to #2, why was this Qibla not dear to him as compared to this new Qibla?

5. If No to #2, Why God waited 13+ years to keep him directionless (Qibla-less) and not direct him to a Qibla prophet liked all along?

Best Regards,
Dawood

Messages In This Thread

Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Wednesday, 24 May 2017, 10:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:27 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 1:14 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 2:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:25 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Mohammad IL -- Friday, 26 May 2017, 3:08 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Ali Syed New Jersey -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 11:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 8:23 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 25 May 2017, 10:23 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Monday, 29 May 2017, 8:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 30 May 2017, 7:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 4 June 2017, 11:55 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 2:49 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 9:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:35 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 10:21 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:56 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 7:56 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:04 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:28 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Yusuf, Texas -- Sunday, 18 June 2017, 7:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 19 June 2017, 6:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 2:00 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 20 June 2017, 8:39 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
m ahmed -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 9:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 21 June 2017, 8:54 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 22 June 2017, 8:43 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 7:59 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 23 June 2017, 11:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 24 June 2017, 8:48 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 26 June 2017, 9:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla / Post deleted
Fadil / Dr Shabbir -- Saturday, 27 May 2017, 4:31 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
SHabib, Canada -- Sunday, 28 May 2017, 5:12 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 31 May 2017, 3:46 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 1 June 2017, 7:38 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:07 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 2 June 2017, 9:51 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 3 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 5 June 2017, 11:41 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 8:15 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:48 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:32 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:22 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 8:06 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:26 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:05 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:43 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:06 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 11:38 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:07 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 9:02 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 10:09 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 8:46 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 8:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:42 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 9 June 2017, 11:34 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 10 June 2017, 4:10 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 4:50 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:54 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 6:11 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 8:30 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:32 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Wednesday, 7 June 2017, 11:09 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 11:29 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Imraan, England -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 9:11 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 8 June 2017, 7:29 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 12 June 2017, 5:16 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 13 June 2017, 8:34 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 14 June 2017, 8:08 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 9:40 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 15 June 2017, 7:47 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 8:22 am
Re: Salat and Qibla
Dawood, USA -- Friday, 16 June 2017, 9:17 pm
Re: Salat and Qibla
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 17 June 2017, 3:35 pm