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Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
By:jawaid ahmed,uk
Date: Tuesday, 16 May 2017, 8:37 am
In Response To: Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS (Dawood, USA)

Your comments are in capitals and my answer in lower case.

BROTHER JAWAID, YOUR ANSWERS ARE CHANGING LIKE SHIFTING SAND AND GETTING INTERESTING.

Then sand cleanses when no water so are you getting purified?

YOU WROTE: “I HAVE STATED THAT SALAT SYSTEM COMES AFTER INDIVIDUAL SALAT. THOSE WHO GAIN POWER ARE DOING THEIR OWN SALAT AND THIS GIVES THEM THE KNOWHOW TO ESTABLISH SALAT IN SOCIETY.”
IN THE ABOVE, NOW YOU ARE STATING “THOSE WHO GAIN POWER” THEY DO: (I) INDIVIDUAL SALAT, AND
FIRST, GIVE ME THE VERSES RELATED TO, AND (III) THE SOCIETAL SALAT?

(I) THAT SALAT NEED BE DONE WHEN IN POWER:

22:41 They are the ones who if We give them power in the land, establish Salaat (the Divine System), and set up the Just Economic Order (in which wealth circulates freely to nourish every member of the society, and the basic needs of all individuals are taken care of). They promote the Permanent Moral Values and discourage what the Qur’an forbids. And in their governance all affairs are decided according to God's decrees (given in the Qur’an. 5:44-47).

(II) THE INDIVIDUAL SALAT

31:17. "O my son! establish regular prayer, enjoin what is just, and forbid what is wrong: and bear with patient constancy whatever betide thee; for this is firmness (of purpose) in (the conduct of) affairs.

(II) ESTABLISH SALAT IN SOCIETY.

5:6 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! When you congregate for Salaat, wash your faces and your forearms, hands to the elbows. Lightly rub your heads and your feet to the ankles. If you are in the post-coital state with your spouses, bathe your whole body. But, if you are ill or traveling, or coming from the privy, or are in the post-coital state and find no water, then observe dry ablution by touching clean dry soil and lightly rub your faces and hands. God does not wish to place any difficulty upon you, but to make you clean and to perfect His blessings upon you, that you may be grateful. [4:43. Wudhu = Ablution will help prepare mentally for congregational prayer. Tayammum = Dry ablution]

SECOND, THERE IS NO REFERENCE TO THE INDIVIDUAL SALAT, IN YOUR EARLIER POST, YOU STATED AS FOLLOWS:
“AQEEMU SALAT=ESTABLISH THE SYSTEM THAT FACILITATES THE FOLLOWING OF DIVINE COMMANDS.”

I was answering your question societal salat so why mention individual? I also stated that institutions should be run according to the commands of the Quran and are you saying the Quran has nothing to do with us when we are out in society?

NOW DEFINE THE OTHER “SYSTEM” THAT WILL TAKE CARE OF THE INDIVIDUAL SALAT? QUOTE THE VERSES RELATED TO THIS?

Wrong question and your lack of understanding about individuals and the socities we inhabit. Salat will stop individuals from doing wrong, but systems in place in institutions will help society.

YOU WROTE: “HUMAN BEINGS LEARN WHAT IS RIGHT FROM WRONG BY READING AND KNOWING WHAT IS RIGHT FROM WRONG. THIS AGAIN ANSWERS YOUR THREE QUESTIONS.”
NO, IT DOES NOT ANSWER ANY OF MY QUESTIONS. MY QUESTIONS WERE, WHICH OF YOUR SYSTEM, COUNCIL, PARLIAMENT, ETC. WOULD COME HANDY IN THOSE SITUATIONS? OBVIOUS ANSWER WAS/IS NONE. INSTEAD OF ANSWERING THOSE QUESTIONS, YOU YET CONFUSED YOURSELF BY DECLARING THAT THERE ARE TWO SALATS NOW. THAT MEANS YOUR DEFINITION “AQEEMU SALAT=ESTABLISH THE SYSTEM THAT FACILITATES THE FOLLOWING OF DIVINE COMMANDS” IS NOT COMPLETE AND YOU NEED TO REVISE IT?

Read again, individuals learn to follow the commands of the Quran, salat individual, and then get society to follow them, social salat. Where is the confusion?

YOU WROTE: “AS REGARDS PARWEZ AND GATHERINGS, I HAVE REPEATEDLY STATED THAT INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT LIVE IN ISOLATION AND NEED TO GATHER TOGETHER. AGREED?”
YES, THEY CANNOT LIVE IN ISOLATION. ISN’T IT A COMMON KNOWLEDGE? WHAT IS SO INSIGHTFUL ABOUT THIS?

Because you have not understood what goes on in society and the role of salat in this!

YOU WROTE: “1.THE QURAN DOES NOT HAVE A ‘NAMAZ’ RITUAL PRAYER INSTRUCTION VERSE IN THE SAME WAY AS THE ABLUTION VERSE.”
IS THIS THE DEFINITION OF A RITUAL? IF IT HAS MULTIPLE VERSES TO DEFINE AND CLARIFY THE SAME CONCEPT, WHY IT CANNOT BE TREATED AS A RITUAL THE SAME WAY AS ABLUTION?

No understanding of what I wrote. An important event, 5 times a day, should have a verse telling us what to do, what to say, when to do it, in the same detailed manner that the ablution verse does. If we have to go to numerous verses which are open to interpretation, as I am demonstrating though you disagree, then this is a problem. Numerous verses on a topic are there to eliminate the problems of understanding language, which is why we get the birds and salat, but you ignore or criminally distort this meaning.

YOU WROTE: “2. PARWEZ GOES THROUGH A WHOLE LIST OF WHAT SALAT MEANS BEFORE HE GETS TO THE NAMAZ ISSUE SO IT IS IMPORTANT TO DO ALL OF THE ABOVE BEFORE ANY THOUGHT OF WHAT GOES ON IN THE GATHERING CAN BE DISCUSSED. HE STATES THROUGHOUT HIS LUGHAT THAT EMPTY RITUALS ARE MEANINGLESS. NAMAZ IS AN EMPTY RITUAL. YOU DO THE MATHS ABOUT WHAT PARWEZ UNDERSTOOD ABOUT NAMAZ.”
FIRST, PLEASE DEFINE: WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF AN “EMPTY RITUAL” AND A “NON-EMPTY RITUAL?”

An empty ritual is one performed like an aerobics exercise where the ‘result’ is personal ‘salvation’ and has no humanitarian effect.
Salat is to get us to know what we have to do and help each other to better ourselves etc etc.
The Quran was read out to those who understood the language and could benefit from it, if they choose to do so, and reciting Arabic without understanding is an empty ritual.

YOU DISAGREE WITH ALLAMA PARWEZ BECAUSE “NAMAZ IS AN EMPTY RITUAL?” YOU ALSO STATE THAT ALLAMA PARWEZ HAS THROUGHOUT OF HIS LUGHAT STATED THAT “EMPTY RITUALS” ARE MEANINGLESS. BUT THEN ALLAM PARWEZ STATES THIS IN THE SAME LUGHAT:
“ALLAMA PARWEZ STATES UNDER ARTICLE 9, PAGE 1039, URDU LUGHAT, THAT “THE WORD SALAT IS ALSO USED FOR A SPECIFIC ACTIONS AT CERTAIN PLACES IN THE QURAN”. HE FURTHER STATES, AFTER QUOTING [5:6, 4:43, 4:101-2, 5:58, 62:9-10] ETC., ON PAGE 1041 THAT “FROM THE ABOVE EXPOSITION IT IS CLEAR THAT THE WORD “SALAT” IS ALSO USED FOR THE GATHERINGS WHICH ARE TYPICALLY CALLED GATHERINGS OF/FOR NAMAZ.”

Operative word is ‘gathering’ which is in the Quran but what is the purpose? Have you read the Quran in context? What does 5;7 and 5;8 say right after 5;6 so what was the result expected after doing 5;6?
5:7 Remember God's blessing (guidance) upon you and His Covenant binding upon you when you said, “We hear and we obey.” Be mindful of God. God is fully Aware of what is in the hearts. [1:4-5]
5:8 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Be upholders of justice for the sake of God as witnesses to the truth. Let not the hatred of any people move you away from justice. Deal justly. That is closer to being upright. Be mindful of your duty to God. God is fully Aware of what you do.

And

62:9 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! When the call for Salaat (carrying out Divine Commands) is announced on the Day of the Congregation, hasten to the remembrance of God and leave your commerce. That is for your own good if you use your knowledge.
62:10 And when the Salaat has been completed, disperse freely in the land and seek God’s bounty and remember God (and His commands) often so that you may prosper. [62:4]
62:11 Yet when they see some bargain or entertainment, they rush to it, and leave you standing. Say, “What is with God is better than all entertainment and all bargain. God is the Best of providers.”

This means remember what you have learnt at the gathering.

QUESTION: DON’T YOU THINK THE MOST LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT NAMAZ IS NOT AN EMPTY RITUAL IN ALLAMA PARWEZ’S VIEWS AND IT HAS STRONG SUPPORT FROM THE VERSES OF THE QURAN AS HE QUOTED ABOVE, OTHERWISE HE WOULD HAVE NOT MENTIONED IT IF IT WAS AN EMPTY RITUAL HAVING NO SUPPORT IN THE QURAN?

No. He stated that the form of namaaz as is done is not in the Quran but should be continued to stop anyone forming a new sect, more division. I disagree as continuing a falsehood will never achieve a truth.

YOU WROTE: “3. IF THE MESSENGER GATHERED PEOPLE TOGETHER, LINED THEM UP, STOOD THEM UP, THEN HE DID SO ACCORDING TO ANY SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE GATHER AND THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED TODAY BY SITTING ON CHAIRS.”
THIS IS INTERESTING. WHY BACK THEN PROPHET NEEDED TO “LINE UP” AND “STAND THEM UP?” WHICH SITUATION ARE YOU REFERRING TO WHICH WAS PREVALENT BACK THEN BUT NOT NOW? THEY DID NOT HAVE CHAIRS BACK THEN? HOW WOULD YOU ARRANGE THE CHAIRS, CIRCLES, SQUARES, FACING EACH OTHER, …? DO YOU FIND ANY SUPPORT IN QURAN ABOUT SUCH WILD NOTIONS AND ASSERTIONS?

I said “IF”, please read what I say, not what you assume I say. If the Messenger arranged people in lines etc at the gatherings, this was done for the sake of organisation and not as a binding sunnah. This, if it happened, resulted in the ritual of lining up, adding physical prostrations, repeating words you cannot understand back to Allah Who gave them, i.e a ritual instead of the intention of teaching people how to behave through the Quran.

YOUR POINTS 3-5 HAVE NO WAY TO REFUTE ALLAMA PARWEZ’S CLAIMS, RATHER YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE BASED ON GENERALITIES, SUBJECTIVITY, AND PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AS TO “WHAT PROPHET SHOULD HAVE DONE” INSTEAD OF “WHAT HE ACTUALLY DID”. YOU HAVE GENERALIZED QURAN AND ITS VERSES TO SUCH AN EXTENT THAT YOU ARE BLINDED TO THE CLEAR VERSES OF THE QURAN. DEAR BROTHER, YOU ARE RUNNING FROM PILLAR TO POST TO JUSTIFY YOUR GENERALIZATIONS (AKA SYSTEM) WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE FROM THE QURAN. THIS IS THE LEAST I CAN SAY.

What he actually did is in the Quran as he followed the Quran alone.
I have gone snow blind so cannot comment on what you did not understand from my post.

IN YOUR PREVIOUS POST YOU WROTE: “FROM THIS STATEMENT BOTH WENT HUNTING AND FISHING. IF WE SAY THAT A DOG CANNOT FISH BECAUSE WE HAVE NEVER SEEN A DOG FISHING, THEN WE WILL MISTAKENLY ASSUME THAT THE MAN HUNTED AND FISHED AND THE DOG HUNTED ONLY. BUT FROM WHAT IS WRITTEN WE CANNOT SAY A DOG CANNOT FISH BECAUSE IT IS STATED THAT BOTH DO IT. THEY MEANS BOTH. ALL IN 24:41 MEANS ALL.”
LET US ASSUME “DOG FISHED WITH YOU” AS YOU CLAIM. TAKING A CUE FROM THIS, SHOULD YOUR LISTENER/READER EXTRAPOLATE IT AND CONCLUDE HOW HUMANS DO FISHING OR SHOULD DO FISHING, DESPITE THE FACT HUMANS’ WAY/METHOD OF FISHING IS WELL KNOWN TO THE LISTENER/READER? THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING WITH SALAT THROUGH 24_41. "BIRDS IN FLIGHT" ARE IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO INFER “WHAT SALAT SHOULD BE” BUT PROPHETS WHO ACTUALLY PERFORMED SALAT AND SHOULD BE THE ROLE MODELS FOR US ARE NOT. JAWAID BHAI, THIS “BIRD THESIS” IS YOUR LAST STRAW TO HANG ON TO YOUR SYSTEM THEORY, A VERY WEAK ARGUMENT INDEED. PLEASE REFLECT.

You created a false story that purported to support your belief about birds and salat. The Quran does not say ‘man and dog’, it says EVERYTHING, so there is no division as you created. It does not say that ‘the man went fishing and the dog went hunting’, it says ALL know they salat and tasbih.
Your story fails to follow what the Quran says, so your story can mean what you have said, but it is not applicable to the Quran. My attempt was to show what you have to write in order to follow how the Quran says it.
Prophets do salat, birds do salat. What is common to both? Have you got in your mind a salat that allows for a clear definition that fits both scenarios? NO. Hence you cannot see birds doing salat as this does not fit your picture of salat, even though you keep saying you are learning!

Snow blindness is catching!

Messages In This Thread

24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 6 May 2017, 8:26 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
dawood, usa -- Sunday, 7 May 2017, 12:32 am
Re: 24:41 salat - English please!
AbdusSattar India -- Monday, 8 May 2017, 7:13 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 8 May 2017, 4:15 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 9 May 2017, 7:59 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 9 May 2017, 10:09 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 10 May 2017, 7:56 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 10 May 2017, 8:16 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 11 May 2017, 8:19 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 11 May 2017, 11:11 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Saturday, 13 May 2017, 3:25 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
Dawood, USA -- Monday, 15 May 2017, 3:34 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 16 May 2017, 8:37 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 17 May 2017, 12:31 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 17 May 2017, 1:03 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
dawood, usa -- Wednesday, 17 May 2017, 2:37 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 17 May 2017, 2:56 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
dawood, usa -- Friday, 19 May 2017, 1:32 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Friday, 19 May 2017, 1:21 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Tuesday, 9 May 2017, 11:41 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
Dawood, USA -- Tuesday, 9 May 2017, 10:04 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Wednesday, 10 May 2017, 3:01 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
Dawood, USA -- Wednesday, 10 May 2017, 8:05 pm
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
jawaid ahmed,uk -- Thursday, 11 May 2017, 9:07 am
Re: 24:41 salat and tasbih OF BIRDS
Dawood, USA -- Thursday, 11 May 2017, 11:24 pm