Dear Moderators, can you please move this post up. Thank you.
-------now response to brother Jawaid ------
Brother Jawaid, your answers are changing like shifting sand and getting interesting.
You wrote: “I have stated that salat system comes after individual salat. Those who gain power are doing their own salat and this gives them the knowhow to establish salat in society.”
In the above, now you are stating “those who gain power” they do: (i) individual salat, and (ii) establish salat in society.
First, give me the verses related to (i) that salat need be done when in power, (ii) the individual Salat and (iii) the societal salat?
Second, there is no reference to the individual Salat, in your earlier post, you stated as follows:
“Aqeemu Salat=Establish the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands.”
“A1.In a society this ‘obediance’ to the commands of Allah is realised in the way our institutions are set up, the council, parliament, the ‘village’ hall community gathering. Those muslims who attain power in the land set them up according to the commands of Allah, and the result is that a system is made that allows for the commands of Allah to be understood and followed in society.”
In the above, is there a reference to the individual Salat? No. You are defining your pet “system” as “council, parliament, etc.?” When I asked you which of this “system, council, parliament, etc.” will come in handy in those three situations, you just went ahead and defined two salats. Clearly, you have no idea what the Quranic salat is, you are making it up as you go.
You stated “Obedience to the commands of Allah is realized THE WAY OUR INSTITUTIONS ARE SET UP.” (emphasis mine). Please quote a verse that informs us about “the way our institutions, council/parliament, etc.” should be set up? Is Quran proposing “a specific way” to set up councils and parliaments or other institutions of governing?
Now define the other “system” that will take care of the individual salat? Quote the verses related to this?
You wrote: “Human beings learn what is right from wrong by reading and knowing what is right from wrong. This again answers your three questions.”
No, it does not answer any of my questions. My questions were, which of your system, council, parliament, etc. would come handy in those situations? Obvious answer was/is NONE. Instead of answering those questions, you yet confused yourself by declaring that there are two Salats now. That means your definition “Aqeemu Salat=Establish the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands” is not complete and you need to revise it?
You wrote: “As regards Parwez and gatherings, I have repeatedly stated that individual human beings cannot live in isolation and need to gather together. Agreed?”
Yes, they cannot live in isolation. Isn’t it a common knowledge? What is so insightful about this?
You wrote: “1.The Quran does not have a ‘namaz’ ritual prayer instruction verse in the same way as the ablution verse.”
Is this the definition of a ritual? If it has multiple verses to define and clarify the same concept, why it cannot be treated as a ritual the same way as ablution?
You wrote: “2. Parwez goes through a whole list of what salat means before he gets to the namaz issue so it is important to do all of the above before any thought of what goes on in the gathering can be discussed. He states throughout his lughat that empty rituals are meaningless. Namaz is an empty ritual. You do the maths about what Parwez understood about namaz.”
First, please define: What is the definition of an “empty ritual” and a “non-empty ritual?”
You disagree with Allama Parwez because “namaz is an empty ritual?” You also state that Allama Parwez has throughout of his Lughat stated that “empty rituals” are meaningless. But then Allam Parwez states this in the same lughat:
“Allama Parwez states under article 9, page 1039, Urdu Lughat, that “the word Salat is also used for a specific actions at certain places in the Quran”. He further states, after quoting [5:6, 4:43, 4:101-2, 5:58, 62:9-10] etc., on page 1041 that “from the above exposition it is clear that the word “salat” is also used for the gatherings which are typically called gatherings of/for Namaz.”
Question: Don’t you think the most logical conclusion is that Namaz is not an empty ritual in Allama Parwez’s views and it has strong support from the verses of the Quran as he quoted above, otherwise he would have not mentioned it if it was an empty ritual having no support in the Quran?
You wrote: “3. If the Messenger gathered people together, lined them up, stood them up, then he did so according to any situation where people gather and this can be achieved today by sitting on chairs.”
This is interesting. Why back then prophet needed to “line up” and “stand them up?” Which situation are you referring to which was prevalent back then but not now? They did not have chairs back then? How would you arrange the chairs, circles, squares, facing each other, …? Do you find any support in Quran about such wild notions and assertions?
Your points 3-5 have no way to refute Allama Parwez’s claims, rather your arguments are based on generalities, subjectivity, and preconceived notions as to “what prophet should have done” instead of “what he actually did”. You have generalized Quran and its verses to such an extent that you are blinded to the clear verses of the Quran. Dear brother, you are running from pillar to post to justify your generalizations (aka system) without any evidence from the Quran. This is the least I can say.
In your previous post you wrote: “From this statement both went hunting and fishing. If we say that a dog cannot fish because we have never seen a dog fishing, then we will mistakenly assume that the man hunted and fished and the dog hunted only. But from what is written we cannot say a dog cannot fish because it is stated that both do it. They means both. All in 24:41 means ALL.”
Let us assume “dog fished with you” as you claim. Taking a cue from this, should your listener/reader extrapolate it and conclude how humans do fishing or should do fishing, despite the fact humans’ way/method of fishing is well known to the listener/reader? This is what you are doing with Salat through 24_41. "Birds in flight" are important for you to infer “what Salat should be” but prophets who actually performed Salat and should be the role models for us are not. Jawaid bhai, this “bird thesis” is your last straw to hang on to your system theory, a very weak argument indeed. Please reflect.
My further response may get delayed because this week is extremely busy for me.