You wrote:”What example does the Quran say the Messengers have for us? FOLLOW ALLAH, FOLLOW THE QURAN.”
Did I quote anything which is not in the Quran? You say “follow the Quran,” I quote verse 33:12 from the Quran, and you don’t want to consider it? Is this following the Quran?
My brother, the right attitude is not to deny the verses rather seek more knowledge (Quran) what is in those verses and then to implement those verses if we are to be the true believers.
You wrote: “Dawood Bhai, it is not a matter of ‘my understanding’ as this means your understanding is different.”
Yes, indeed my understanding is somewhat different if not very different than yours.
You wrote: “I am always open to new thoughts but they must be proved conclusively. Your understanding does not make sense taking the verse as a whole.”
I have taken the verse in totality and arrived at the conclusion I presented earlier. This word “conclusively” is dependent upon my explanations as much as it is dependent upon you to consider these. You are aware of the saying, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder? Here is a contrived example that may shed some more light?
You and your hunting dog go for hunting in a forest next to a lake. After about half day of hunting, you did fishing in the lake for the remainder of the day. At the end of the day, you come home and your wife asks you “where have you both been?” You replied, we went for hunting And fishing.
Did you mean dog also did fishing with you the way you did?
Did your wife also infer from your statement that yes you and the dog both did fishing as well?
You wrote: “In some circumstances we can have a difference of opinion and agree to disagree as both can be equally valid, but in the case of verse 24:41 I do not see any other understanding than birds do salat and tasbih. Knowing this will allow us to go to the next step and understand the ‘institutions’ etc. but before we can do this we need we need to know what salat is.”
Look, I am conceding your right to understand it the way you do. I don’t agree with your understanding, but its alright. I understand very clearly how you understand this verse and want to use it to infer something related to the human Salat. Now lets come to the Systems and Institutions you are referring to because these are the terms you want to use for Salat when it relates to humans. You defined the term “Aqeemu Salat” as follows:
“Aqeemu Salat=Establish the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands”
Please answer the following questions.
1. What do you mean by the term “system?” Define this “system”.
2. Are “system” and the word “salat” interchangeable?
3. How does this system look like? What are its various components?
4. How do you know that this “system” is “facilitating following the Divine Commands” once this “system” is in place?
5. Is this “system” collective or individual?
6. Above all, where are “system” and its components listed in the Quran?
You wrote: “Zakariya did two things, he did a ‘dua’ when he was at ‘salat’. If there is a problem then seeking help from Allah, dua, produces a result by doing salat, following the commands of Allah, doing the right thing.”
I need to entangle your words here. So you agree when prophet Zakaria was “QAimun Yassali = standing in prayers”, he was making Dua to God for a son. That this Dua is made during Salat and prophet Zakariya did it while standing. I hope we are OK until this point?
The second part “..dua, produces a result by doing salat,” is your brainchild. These verses have no such suggestion in there. Of course, prophet Zakaria and his wife must have undertaken certain steps so that she gets pregnant. This is what we all (including Muslims and Non-Muslims) do when confronted with similar situations. From this definition of yours, even atheists are doing Salat, which runs contrary to what the Book is saying.
You wrote: “You said you have studied Parwez and in his lughaat he has the following. This explains the multifarious aspects of salat and so our understanding of every verse of the Quran must be done with these in mind.”
Yes, indeed I have studied him in his original writings, Urdu. I cannot say that I have read his entire work, but I am confident that I read around 80-90 of his work spread over many volumes. His Lughat-ul-Quran is most often my first stop. One needs to understand what is in this Lughat?
As per my reading, it has two main parts fused together for the words used in Quran. First part deals with mostly lexiconical meanings taken from classic lexicons. Most if not all the definitions related to the word “salat” which I posted earlier were taken from this part.
The second part fused with the first part deals with how Allama Parwez himself understood certain terms and terminologies used in the Quran. Although, he is one of my respected as well as influential teachers, I don’t agree with certain aspects of his expositions arrived in the second part. My methodology is that I want to stay as close to the verses as possible, keeping in view the context, the background, the words within and outside the verses, the grammatical structure, and how the same word is used at other places throughout the Quran. Yet, Lughat is a great piece of work, and I am indebted to Allama for his service to us.
Having said that, Allama Parwez states under article 9, page 1039, Urdu Lughat, that “the word Salat is also used for a specific actions at certain places in the Quran”. He further states, after quoting [5:6, 4:43, 4:101-2, 5:58, 62:9-10] etc., on page 1041 that “from the above exposition it is clear that the word “salat” is also used for the gatherings which are typically called gatherings of/for Namaz.”
Do you agree or disagree with the above statement(s) of Allama Parwez?