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A Little sensable, Critique of Sura 94
By:Badar
Date: Monday, 26 October 2009, 2:58 am

Here are some linguistic based objections from freeminds that I want to share here. May this serve as a stimulus for mutually productive and constructive critique here as well.

Badar

Mazhar
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 04:55:15 PM »

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Quote
You turned away, shunned and forsook it, and distanced yourself, considering it weak or incorrect.

Who has whispered this information into the ears of the translator since there are no words written above it in Arabic conveying this information?

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bkanwar2
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 05:22:52 PM »

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If, this were to be a whisper at all. Could it be at all from Satan? Of course, whispers are heard by ones experiencing illusions and delusions. I am absolutely sure, I am not experiencing either.

Badar

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Mazhar
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 06:32:13 PM »

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While reading any book and translating it in another language if an idea comes in to the mind and also finds mention in the translation while it is not there in the whole of the text of the book being translated, it is nothing but whisper and delusion in the mind of the translator. It is such a fact which needs no further evidence. A deluded person seldom feels and understands that he is deluded. He may realize it if he is asked to point out the words in the text of the book which conveyed him the idea he has perceived or got whispered.

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Q_student
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 06:46:32 PM »

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on October 22, 2009, 05:22:52 PM
If, this were to be a whisper at all. Could it be at all from Satan?

The answer is Surely.
Regards

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bkanwar2
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 07:10:29 PM »

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Aren't the people who insist upon there ancestors ways deluding themselves. If any one is really bothered and cares for the message. I would humbly ask to please, pull up my discussions about Jezm, Sukoon and Shaadha under my user name on this very forum; and re-read those, please.

صَدْر, is tradionally considered one word followed by كَ a personal pronoun. However, if one were to consider Jezm of Dal of صَدْرَكَ. This becomes two words صَدْ followed by رَكَ.

Here are the relavant pages from Lane for review of meanings. I am having a trouble to open Lane's PDF files. If within two hours window it would work I shall post here the links for relevant pages. Otherwise in a subsequent post. If one were to look at meanings of root word نَشْرَحْ, which is " he uncovered, laid upon, revealed or disclosed. There is no way in the world that one could take and make sentence by using meanings of word صَدْرَ as chest traditionally.

Badar

For صَدْرَ, please see here, even the first meanings for this word is returned back

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000384.pdf

for صَدْ, please see here, which is "he turned away, avoided, shunned and left him or it or he forsook him"

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000382.pdf

for رَكَ , please see here, which is "it(a thing) was or became weak, feeble and incorrect".

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000307.pdf

and for شْرَحْ please see here, which is " he uncovered and laid open, discovered, revealed or disclosed".

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000254.pdf

« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 08:07:41 PM by bkanwar2 » Logged

Q_student
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2009, 07:21:01 PM »

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on October 22, 2009, 07:10:29 PM
Aren't the people who insist upon there ancestors ways deluding themselves. If any one is bothered and cares for message. I would humbly ask to please, pull up my discussions about Jezm, Sukoon and Shaadha under my user name on this very forum; and re-read them please.

صَدْر, is tradionally considered one word followed by كَ a personal pronoun. However, if one were to consider Jezm of Dal of صَدْرَكَ. This becomes two words صَدْ followed by رَكَ.

Here are the relavant pages from Lane for review of meanings.

Does Lane's Lexicon not give the word صَدْر ??

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Mazhar
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2009, 02:26:00 AM »

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Quote
Aren't the people who insist upon there ancestors ways deluding themselves. If any one is really bothered and cares for the message. I would humbly ask to please, pull up my discussions about Jezm, Sukoon and Shaadha under my user name on this very forum; and re-read those, please.

صَدْر, is tradionally considered one word followed by كَ a personal pronoun. However, if one were to consider Jezm of Dal of صَدْرَكَ. This becomes two words صَدْ followed by رَكَ.

And what will be the case here?

فَمَن يُرِدِ اللّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلاَمِ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا

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bkanwar2
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2009, 03:29:57 AM »

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Dear Brother wait until, I get to this verse. You and I, both will know the meanings. Else, please try applying the metohd elaborated about Jezm, Sukoon and I shall help you to understand this verse.

Badar

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Mazhar
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2009, 03:58:24 AM »

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on October 23, 2009, 03:29:57 AM
Dear Brother wait until, I get to this verse. You and I, both will know the meanings. Else, please try applying the metohd elaborated about Jezm, Sukoon and I shall help you to understand this verse.

Badar

Okay. But what about this:

Quote
You turned away, shunned and forsook it, and distanced yourself, considering it weak or incorrect.

Quote
While reading any book and translating it in another language if an idea comes in to the mind and also finds mention in the translation while it is not there in the whole of the text of the book being translated, it is nothing but whisper and delusion in the mind of the translator. It is such a fact which needs no further evidence. A deluded person seldom feels and understands that he is deluded. He may realize it if he is asked to point out the words in the text of the book which conveyed him the idea he has perceived or got whispered.

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bkanwar2
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2009, 04:50:20 PM »

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Okay. But what about this:

Quote
You turned away, shunned and forsook it, and distanced yourself, considering it weak or incorrect.

Quote
While reading any book and translating it in another language if an idea comes in to the mind and also finds mention in the translation while it is not there in the whole of the text of the book being translated, it is nothing but whisper and delusion in the mind of the translator. It is such a fact which needs no further evidence. A deluded person seldom feels and understands that he is deluded. He may realize it if he is asked to point out the words in the text of the book which conveyed him the idea he has perceived or got whispered.

Dear Brother, I would humbly request you to open your mind. Get out of prefixed notions and beliefs. As much Arabic you know, it should be sufice for reading these following links; and understading these should not be as difficult, as for a novice of Arabic.

For صَدْرَ, please see here, even the first meanings for this word is returned back

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000384.pdf

for صَدْ, please see here, which is "he turned away, avoided, shunned and left him or it or he forsook him"

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000382.pdf

for رَكَ , please see here, which is "it(a thing) was or became weak, feeble and incorrect".

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000307.pdf

and for شْرَحْ please see here, which is " he uncovered and laid open, discovered, revealed or disclosed".

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000254.pdf

Badar

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Q_student
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2009, 05:04:11 PM »

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on October 23, 2009, 04:50:20 PM
Okay. But what about this:

Quote
You turned away, shunned and forsook it, and distanced yourself, considering it weak or incorrect.

Quote
While reading any book and translating it in another language if an idea comes in to the mind and also finds mention in the translation while it is not there in the whole of the text of the book being translated, it is nothing but whisper and delusion in the mind of the translator. It is such a fact which needs no further evidence. A deluded person seldom feels and understands that he is deluded. He may realize it if he is asked to point out the words in the text of the book which conveyed him the idea he has perceived or got whispered.

Dear Brother, I would humbly request you to open your mind. Get out of prefixed notions and beliefs. As much Arabic you know, it should be sufice for reading these following links; and understading these should not be as difficult, as for a novice of Arabic.

For صَدْرَ, please see here, even the first meanings for this word is returned back

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000384.pdf

for صَدْ, please see here, which is "he turned away, avoided, shunned and left him or it or he forsook him"

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000382.pdf

for رَكَ , please see here, which is "it(a thing) was or became weak, feeble and incorrect".

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000307.pdf

and for شْرَحْ please see here, which is " he uncovered and laid open, discovered, revealed or disclosed".

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000254.pdf

Badar

There is no such word as "Sadra" .It is either "Sadrun" (which is a noun)
or "sadara"(which is a verb)

There is no word as "Rak" (with single kaaf).Rather it is "Rakka" (with two kaafs ie Raa ,kaaf ,kaaf and it is a verb) or " Rakkun" (with two kaafs i.e Raa ,kaaf ,kaaf and it is a noun)
Regards

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bkanwar2
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Posts: 333

Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2009, 05:16:05 PM »

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Quote from: Q_student on October 23, 2009, 05:04:11 PM
There is no such word as "Sadra" .It is either "Sadrun" (which is a noun)
or "sadara"(which is a verb)

There is no word as "Rak" (with single kaaf).Rather it is "Rakka" (with two kaafs ie Raa ,kaaf ,kaaf and it is a verb) or " Rakkun" (with two kaafs i.e Raa ,kaaf ,kaaf and it is a noun)
Regards

Okay, so your point is that صَدْرَكَ is a verb with personal pronoun. Meaning "you turned back". So you are accepting Muslims turned back from what Rubb revealed and dislcosed via the prophet (of course it could not have been prophet himself, who turned back). You just do not want to accept or have problem with the part "shunned and forsook it, and distanced yourself, considering it weak or incorrect." I am very glad you do have problem with this part. This means Muslims still have a chance to return back to, what prohphet laid open and disclosed, that is the AlKitab.

Peace

Badar

« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 05:18:44 PM by bkanwar2 » Logged

Q_student
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2009, 05:19:56 PM »

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on October 23, 2009, 05:16:05 PM
Okay, so your point is that صَدْرَكَ is a verb with personal pronoun. Meaning "you turned back". So you are accepting Muslims turned back from what Rubb revealed and dislosed via the prophet (of course it could not be prophet himself who turned back). You just do not want to accept or have problem with the part "shunned and forsook it, and distanced yourself, considering it weak or incorrect." I am very glad you do have problem with this part. This means Muslims still have a chance to return back to, what prohphet laid open and disclosed that is AlKitab.

Peace

Badar

Sadraka is combination of two words
Sadrun - noun
Ka = Pronoun

There is no verb in it .
Verb = Sadara .
It is not Sadarak.It is Sadraka.
If you do not understand such simple basic thing ,I think Anwar is the best person to cheat you all this stuff.

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bkanwar2
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Posts: 333

Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2009, 05:24:01 PM »

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Brother this attitude unfortunately proves this part of verse "shunned and forsook it, and distanced yourself, considering it weak or incorrect." Also, this points out the problems with Arabic Grammar, as it is known today. Increasingly, it is becoming clear that interpolating of message is more systematic and very carefully planned.

Badar

« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 05:41:54 PM by bkanwar2 » Logged

bkanwar2
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Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2009, 04:28:06 AM »

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on October 23, 2009, 05:24:01 PM
Brother this attitude unfortunately proves this part of verse "shunned and forsook it, and distanced yourself, considering it weak or incorrect." Also, this points out the problems with Arabic Grammar, as it is known today. Increasingly, it is becoming clear that interpolating of message is more systematic and very carefully planned.

Badar

Dear, Q_Student, the above was a little sarcastic response. I realized where I am looking at the text, it appears very simple. However, I realized that I am not in your shoes. So, I am putting those on and then looking at this verse.

أَلَمْ would be translated as "have not" . This is followed by شْرَحْ meaning laid open, disclosed, revealed with a prefixed pronoun نَ, could be translated as "we". I chose "I" but one could use "we" no big deal in meanings. This is followed by لَكَ. A combination of a preposition lee, followed by a personal pronoun Ka, meaning "to you". Finally, according to you a noun Sadrun, followed by again a personal pronoun Ka.

Now let us translate it as a sentence in English " Have not, we/I disclosed/revealed to you, your chest (Chest, meaning of sadrun by you, not by Lane's lexicon).

Dear brother what kind of a language is this? What kind of sentence is this? A preposition Lee, followed by a personal pronoun Ka, followed by another noun, Sadrun; and followed by another personal pronoun, Ka. I have yet to find a language with this funny arrangements of words in sentences.

Dear Brother, even if I were to put your shoes. It does not help me at all.

Peace

Badar

« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 04:52:59 AM by bkanwar2 » Logged

kn
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Posts: 62
Re: Was there any burden on prophet's chest?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2009, 01:51:49 PM »

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Quote from: bkanwar2 on October 22, 2009, 07:10:29 PM
Aren't the people who insist upon there ancestors ways deluding themselves. If any one is really bothered and cares for the message. I would humbly ask to please, pull up my discussions about Jezm, Sukoon and Shaadha under my user name on this very forum; and re-read those, please.

صَدْر, is tradionally considered one word followed by كَ a personal pronoun. However, if one were to consider Jezm of Dal of صَدْرَكَ. This becomes two words صَدْ followed by رَكَ.

Here are the relavant pages from Lane for review of meanings. I am having a trouble to open Lane's PDF files. If within two hours window it would work I shall post here the links for relevant pages. Otherwise in a subsequent post. If one were to look at meanings of root word نَشْرَحْ, which is " he uncovered, laid upon, revealed or disclosed. There is no way in the world that one could take and make sentence by using meanings of word صَدْرَ as chest traditionally.

Badar

For صَدْرَ, please see here, even the first meanings for this word is returned back

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000384.pdf

for صَدْ, please see here, which is "he turned away, avoided, shunned and left him or it or he forsook him"

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000382.pdf

for رَكَ , please see here, which is "it(a thing) was or became weak, feeble and incorrect".

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000307.pdf

and for شْرَحْ please see here, which is " he uncovered and laid open, discovered, revealed or disclosed".

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000254.pdf

The above explanation given by you in the qouted text text then makes perfect sense along with the further breakdown given by you above as to why SADRUN cannot fit here, makes a very logical sense. I wonder how some experts like Brother Anwar feel about it too, whom I have been following in other threads as well for his very logical responses after he reverifies and rechecks things again and explains it.

Salam to all and prayers for all for a wonderful effort to bring the humanity to the real meanings of the message as much as possible.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 01:55:27 PM by kn »

Messages In This Thread

A Little sensable, Critique of Sura 94
Badar -- Monday, 26 October 2009, 2:58 am
The Silliest Attempt Ever
Dr Abu Sayeed -- Monday, 26 October 2009, 10:34 am
Re: The Silliest Attempt Ever
Qari Yousuf Khakwani -- Monday, 26 October 2009, 8:41 pm
BEWARE of this tRaNsLaTiOn!
Saadia Khan -- Monday, 26 October 2009, 4:10 pm
What is this? Nonsense
Mehnaz -- Monday, 26 October 2009, 8:15 pm